Raising the debt limit

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JeffC
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House Republicans won't raise the debt limit?

The full consequences of a default, or even the serious prospect of default, by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The Nation cannot afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the House must pass this legislation before the Congress adjourns.

Observerofu
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So do we just keep spending?

Jeff the inevitable consequences you state may or may not occur, however I think it logically follows that if we keep spending our way to "prosperity" the consequences are no less dire.

If the Democrats will not agree on spending cuts equal to the debt being raised then I say a no vote is in order. A crash is coming sooner or later might as well take the hit now if there is one to come.

roundabout
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OOU

Your kind of attitude is pretty much what Herbert Hoover had before the Great Depression!

When sOmeone like Bush comes along and destroys a system, someone else has to do what is necessary to avoid such A DEPRESSION.

Observerofu
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Roundone so spending is the key

How has that worked out so far? Has it ever worked before?

Joe Kawfi
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Poll: Most Americans oppose raising debt limit

Poll: Most Americans oppose raising debt limit

Republicans, who control the House of Representatives, are demanding spending cuts in exchange for their votes to raise the debt ceiling. They seized on the recent Standard & Poor's warning that it could eventually lower its rating on U.S. debt "a wake-up call to those in Washington asking Congress to blindly increase the debt limit," in the words of House Majority Leader Eric Cantor.

Once again this administration is not listening to the American people.
All they want to do is spend, spend, spend to buy votes. They could not care less about what happens to America.

Observerofu
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Joe the crash is coming they want it

They know that we can not keep this up.

Obama himself the spender in Chief said it's not sustainable. The irony in that statement would make me chuckle if I wasn't so worried.

The American people are not as stupid as they would have us believe, but is it too late? Now that is the question.

We have a spending problem in DC. Wine Trains, Pig poop studies, gay sex studies, prostitutes in China education and on and on and on. Why are we spending millions on why Chinese Prostitutes in CHINA drink alcohol???

Billions sent to Governments that actively work against our interest.

We need hope and change alright starting in DC starting now.

JeffC
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Agreed OOU... but

I agree that spending is out of control. However, if the House does not raise the debt limit and the US defaults or nearly so, all of the consequences will be laid right on the Republican Party. They're going to give away the economy issue in 2012 if they do this and it will probably destroy the Party.

Observerofu
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That's being said of the Democrat party as well

I think personally it destroys both and takes America with it.

JeffC
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The Republican Party goes first

The Republican/TEA Party goes first. Increasing the debt limit is not going fail because of the Dems. They will run thousands of ads quoting the TEAs and tying the whole economy to the radicalism in the Republican Party. The Rs are on the verge of not only relinquishing the lousy economy issue, they're giving it to Obama and the Democrats. The economic carnage will destroy the Party if they are held responsible for a collapse of the bond and stock markets and the country plunges back into what could be a depression.

AtHomeGym
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Debt Limit & Congressional Voting "Present"

Noted that one GA congressional representative could not find it possible to vote "Yea" or "Nay" on extension of the Debt Limit--our own Hank Johnson, (he of the tilting island theory) could not bring himself to vote yes or no--perhaps following the historical example of his idol as a member of the Senate. What a wimp!

roundabout
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Jeff

Have never seen so many of you agreeing with me!

It's as if I write it and three people repeat it right away!

I'd rather argue than have agreement all of the time. It is more productive! I have always wondered about people who use statistics and reports by other people guessing as to what will happen.

Not necessarily speaking of people on this blog--mostly politicians.

Stupid "positive" thinking where uncalled for is either to get votes or simply don't realize the situation.

Most fools could have seen this economic problem we have in 2006 or 2007 what with all the credit by individuals, the government, banks, & bonds, and many fools did know it but elected to be "positive." They also continued to do the same thing with the same results.

Think a minute! We are actually worse off now than we were a year ago---all due to the same things which can't be changed quickly or we will descend into Depression rapidly! (banks still hold huge bad debts--construction of homes and retail stores is three years ahead yet.

We fail 2-3 banks a week but there are maybe 300 that should be closed!

JeffC
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I've never seen so many agree with you either

Probably the Republicans will eventually vote to raise the limit. Boehner said today they'd do it in a month.

Boehner calls for debt deal in a month

It's up to him to get them to vote and frankly, I'm not sure he can convince 80 of them. So far, some seem almost totally ignorant of even the basic economics; even denying there will be consequences.

The Boehner article has some interesting quotes:

“Of course, it’s dangerous,” a House Republican close to Boehner said of the politics of a government default. “But it’s dangerous for everybody, especially the president. At the end of the day, [Obama] will have to give in.”

Why does Obama have to give in? Because the TEAs are perfectly willing to wreck the economy for political purposes?

“Who has egg on their face if there is a sovereign debt crisis, House Republicans or the president?” asked another senior GOP lawmaker.

They've got to be kidding. They simply cannot be that stupid. This manufactured crisis is totally the responsibility of the House Republicans.

We shall see.

roundabout
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Jeff

Your statement that we are the greatest manufacturing country is somewhat skewed by the numbers!

This country was really sustained by the working class (middle, in the 1900s to 1980) by great cities mostly having large populations producing widgets.

Some sustaining was done by clothing manufacture by a lower middle income people.

But, please take a look at our GDP through 2010 and the problem is evident:

GDP 15 Trillion

Agriculture 1.2%
Industry 21.9%
Service 76.9%

Occupations

Manufacturing 20.3%
Mgt. Tech. office 61.5%
Other services 17.6%

Our Import/Export

Imports 2 trillion
Exports 1 trillion (not sure if we get paid for all of this)

Everyone can not be in service.
Everyone can not be in offices.
A sustainable lifestyle for manufacturing labor is critically important.

roundabout
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What would a survey of people....

.......on here look like by saying where you are on the 2010 results above?

Not before that, not after that, but in 2010!

If there are any who actually make a product in a factory that is sold retail, I would like to congratulate you.

(pieces of paper for signature or otherwise are not products)

(newspapers given away due to ad sales are not products)

AtHomeGym
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GottaGlock?

Assembled in the metro area--a firearm just for you!

Joe Kawfi
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Jeff

97% of the Senate voted against Obumble's ridiculous, unsustainable budget.
Now they won't give one inch in spending cuts - The DEMOCRATS are in control. They are the one's playing chicken at the expense of hard working Americans. Democrats will reap the blame if the country falls into depression.

Obama couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag, much less lead a country.

Neal

roundabout
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Jeff- and others too positive!

Country is not going to default.

As soon as all the politics that can be squeezed out of the bill, then miraculously an agreement will be reached!

Medicare will not disappear, the already passed health bill will stay as is, there will be little if any change in the current tax laws, and Speaker Boehner will only cry 2-3 more times!

There may be some conglomeration of changes submitted for the distant future which will indicate budget savings and more income (due to a better economy), and possibly something for right now so both sides can run on it next year.

The republicans will chop off the heads of the TEAS and Palins' followers, and not split their vote.

The democrats will go with President Obama---enough said.

Changes to the congress will depend upon the economy (which may be worse due to foreclosures and jobs) and we will continue to have fortifications both in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect the incompetent governments and military there.

Same with Libya except NATO may help more there due to it being a sure thing.
Egypt will have a vote, but the military will still be in charge. We will help them to assure an ally there.

Syria is another bushel of religious pretenders who are scared to death of any kind of so-called elections that might interfere with Islam. I expect us to be involved there also, but how I do not know.

We will still have 15% unemployment next year and sometime there after due to all of the overpaid, made up jobs of the last 15-20 years.

Airlines are again asking for a blow-up by leaving out the middle class being able to use them.

It took us 35 years to lose our manufacturing jobs and will take that much to replace them.

Tech jobs, banks, Wall Street, health care, etc., can not carry the load alone due to the fact that serving one another doesn't generate a working economy!
How many of you know someone who actually, physically makes a product to sell?

Hint: closest one might be in Marietta!

JeffC
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Regardless of the poll Joe

The government will run out of spending authority in August. You don't think the consequences of that will be staggering and put the country back into a recession?

Davids mom
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Agreement

As one looks at the state of the union's economy, there are so many issues that all can agree upon - that it is a shame that politics is getting in the way of securing a road to solving many of our problems. Spending must be cut without hurting the economy; entitlements will have to be reformed; citizens, corporations, etc. will have to be willing to endure while we rebuild our economy. I think Jeff is right. The Republican Party will go first if compromise and leadership is not shown with the sitting Congress. America goes 'first' if we lose our credit rating. I hope I'm wrong.

Cyclist
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I suspect that that the "House" will...

pass the debt limit. It will however occur close to midnight on Aug 2. Both the Demos and Repubs have too much to loose if it doesn't pass.

JeffC
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You're probably right Cyclist

The "House" will yield. It's a brinkmanship game. The consequences of not raising the limit would be staggering. It's going to be tough for them to stand up to their constituencies and vote for what's good for the country instead of their ideology.

I suspect Obama will give them a token for cover. Then they can fight over the upcoming budget without threatening the stability of the economy. They might not though. Some of the TEAs who got elected would welcome the crash.

bladderq
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Gov AnyDeal in DC for Money

Why is Gov AnyDeal in Washington looking for money that he claims the govment can't afford to pay out? Shouldn't he be turning all this money back?

Mike King
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OK Jeff

Let's assume you are correct, and I believe you are. What about the unbridled spending that brought us here? This is not a Republican or Democrat issue, and it certainly didn't begin with Bush II, but raising the limit without serious cuts in federal spending only postpones the problem.

We could wait until the economy improves, but since NAFTA was passed we are no longer a manufacturing nation but more of a service nation which exacerbates the dilemma. Would you consider an import fee (tax) be levied on all goods entering the US as a means to repay debts?

Just curious.

JeffC
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No Mike

I want all those "adults in the room" they keep talking about to get together and work something out. Obama and Ryan both produced fake budgets. A pox on both Parties. In this hyper-partisan atmosphere, I'm afraid nothing will be done until after the 2012 elections. The Rs cannot cut the budget significantly without raising taxes so Ryan's budget does not attempt to balance the budget. Their immediate problem is they pledged to reduce spending this fiscal year, which only runs another 3 months. Large cuts look super-magnified if they have to come out of a 3 month budget instead of a 12 month budget.

The Ds know that and they are waiting for the Rs to implement those cuts that will decimate programs instead of trimming them back. Then they will campaign against the huge cuts destroying the government programs.

This is theater. The real test will come with the 2012 budget where the Rs will have a real yearly budget to work with. The cuts will appear much smaller and maybe, possibly, something might get done. But it will be in the heat of the election so that's iffy too.

Many of the House Rs will get beat in 2012 but not enough to swing the House. Their Medicare scam has probably delivered Florida to the Ds in 2012. Just wait until Obama cranks up a billion dollars worth of TV ads telling the seniors about Ryan's voucher system. That will temper them somewhat and hopefully make them more amenable to compromise. Obama will face a re-elected Republican House. Maybe he will be more amenable to compromise.

I am despondent over serious progress until after the 2012s. After that, I expect to be merely somewhat more marginally hopeful.

I am not optimistic in the near term. The Rs are not going to overturn the New Deal in a single fell swoop. They're drinking kool-aid, not tea. They need to learn from the Ds and from Reagan and take incremental pieces and then fight again over every subsequent budget. Newt blew it every time by going all or nothing. Every time! The Ds take a little this time, a little next time, and eventually their whatever it is, is enacted. They've done it for decades and the Rs still haven't caught on to how the system works. Amazing.

The problem has just gotten to be too big to fix in in one or two legislative sessions. That's too radical and Americans simply do not like radical.

The debt limit is an artificial fight with vast consequences. The statement I posted to start this blog is the letter Reagan wrote to the Rs in the Senate in 1983. I just changed "Senate" to "House". I believe Cyclist knew it so he put "House" in quotes in his response.

I don't mind that they jockey for position as long as they don't crash the economy. It's going to be interesting to see who blinks first.

Sorry for raving in this too long post.

BTW: The US is the world's largest manufacturing country, out-producing China by 40%. Last year we produced $1.7 trillion of manufactured goods.

U.S. factories maintain edge

Observerofu
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Jeff one small hiccup in your theory train

The Democrats controlled both the House and Senate, as well as, the Whitehouse when the debt exploded. Now when they lost the House and are in danger of losing the Senate do they become fiscal hawks.

The American people are not as asleep as you and the rest of the Progressive left believes. Remember even the day of the election in November Politicians and pundits alike were already touting the great Democrat win of 2009. how did that work out?

People know Jeff that you can't take over 1/6th of our Economy and increase the size of Government exponentially without raising debt. The politicians in charge during that period was the Democrats. They can and will make the connection. You see we are all tightening our collective belts and almost everyone knows debt is choking us individually so it is easy to equate our individual issues with the National one.

Most of America believes the Economy and debt are the two largest issues, we face. They remember who was in control when the debt exploded.

You can't have The President in charge of all the spending come out and say we should stop spending while spending us into record levels of debt and not have the People guffaw just a bit.

JeffC
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History doesn't seem to be your strong suit OOU

Bush was President when the debt crisis exploded and the economy melted down. Remember TARP?

And government taking over 1/16th of the economy is just another fantasy. How do you like your new government issued Obamacare doctor? Have you scheduled an appointment with your Obamacare "death panel" yet? Can you still make it with all that medical procedure rationing Obamacare imposed?

Sheer fantasy.

AtHomeGym
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Jeff C & Healthcare Reform

Had quite a discussion today with a Doctor who has been my Primary Care Physician for more than 20 years. He is convinced the Govt will completely take over healthcare and the USA will wind up with 2d class healthcare. He believes the Govt will offer physicians so much for certain procedures and they will be forced to take it or leave it. When I said "And then Docs like you will walk away completely from the practice of medicine." and he said "Absolutely." He clearly does not want to be a Govt employee! Hey, he's in the system--he knows!

roundabout
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GYM

My judgement is that your doctor is already very wealthy and won't mind quitting!

If a medical doctor goes to medical school for what money he can get out of it instead of helping people stay well, then he needs to quit.

That is like preachers preaching for the salary and best piece of chicken only!

British doctors are well paid. It does take them a little longer to become wealthy than in the USA.

The Wedge
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Hmm, Roundabout$
roundabout wrote:

British doctors are well paid. It does take them a little longer to become wealthy than in the USA.

1 in 3 doctors in the UK are foreign born and trained in Medical Schools outside of the UK. Why is that? It is not a blossing population--they are not even procreating at replacement rates. Could it be because the money is drying up in the system?

Cyclist
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So tells us roundabout....

just how much should a doctor make????????????

roundabout
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cyclist

All the law allows!

No, I suppose all that people are willing to pay.

Were it not for Medicare, Medicaid, and those wealthy enough to pay cash, most medical practices and hospitals would make far less than Brits!

Doctors are the biggest offenders about skipping out on federal school loans!

We have reached the point where too many Americans can not afford insurance and certainly can't pay cash for medical care. Supply and demand has been reached!

Cyclist
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So roundabout...

which is it; the cost of insurance or the actual cost of healthcare that seems to trouble you?

roundabout
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Cyclist

An odd question, cyclist.

I am troubled by the fact that too many people can not afford either proper medical care, nor can they pay tens of thousands for insurance!

We have a Juggernaut called medical care in this country that makes up maybe 30% of our economy!
It is obvious that practitioners and managers and owners have to make do with less profit for their salaries and stockholders, and with less employees.

The cost then of insurance would automatically decrease. That cost could be absorbed by the budget.

Things don't ever have to stay the way they are!

Cyclist
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roundabout
roundabout wrote:

It is obvious that practitioners and managers and owners have to make do with less profit for their salaries and stockholders, and with less employees.

OK, who decides what the fees should be, salaries for those in this field, and what should the ROI be for drugs and new technologies? Is it the "Guv"? Under this idea you will get your "universal" health care. It will reassemble health care that occurred over 100 years ago.

roundabout
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cyclist

I can only assume that you think that those who can afford medical care get it, those who can not do not get it!

Same with food, I suppose?

Are you forgetting the fact that way too many people can not afford care? It is a right if available.

Cyclist
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Typical lib response roundabout

Those attributes that I speak of are the core of the issue and have to acknowledged and reconciled as we move forward to the unknown with Obamacare. They can't be brush aside or pretend that the don't exist.

Davids mom
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100 years ago?
Quote:

It will reassemble health care that occurred over 100 years ago

100 years ago? I don't think so. There are members of the medical profession who could work with economists to develop a reasonable pay schedule for medical services in this country. IMO. The current cost of medical services, not necessarily care, is unsustainable. When a hospital bill lists the cost of a 'band aid' as 25 cents- something is terribly wrong. 100 years ago, the family physician charged what the patient could afford.. . Then the insurance companies got greedy - as did hospital administrators. Health care has become 'big business' and very corrupt, IMO.

Cyclist
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Davids mom

"There are members of medical profession who could work with economists...."

Let me guess, those economists will get their paychecks from the.......well from the "Guv". Gee, that's like.....thinking real hard............well like a centrally planned economy. So when these economists call upon the the 150,000-member National Nurses United
union to inform them they'll have to take a pay/benefit cut will the union say "well of course" or "hell no". Perhaps we'll see a repeat of the Wisconsin episode sans those ever so evil Repubs.

One thing about it, inject wage and price control into the equation and investment capital along with willing participants in this field will find other endeavors.

Davids mom
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Cy

Not all economists work for the ‘government’. Not all medical professionals heed the beck and call of 'unions''. Many young doctors and nurses are seeking ways to better serve the underserved communities by providing real 'healing' service - and not worried about the 'status' of being a medical professional. Just like many here in Georgia, not all professionals are joining unions. Georgia is having trouble already keeping their brightest and best here - but that's another issue. There are young and intelligent people here who prefer the lifestyle of Georgia - and have no desire for the bright lights and big paychecks of other states. I understand your cynicism, but I truly hope that the young people that I'm meeting who are entering the medical profession can ignore the cynics and prove that services can be provided to Americans without ruining our economy. It's not the 'government' that concerns me (since 'we' are the government) - but the corporations that 'we' have allowed to control our representatives in Congress. (Pharmaceutical, equipment, hospitals, etc., etc., etc.) There is something wrong with a ‘democracy’ – when a candidate for office needs almost a billion dollars in order to have a ‘chance’ at being ‘democratically’ elected.

bad_ptc
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AHG, I’ve got the cure for health care reform

Health care has been reformed to the point where I can now get the quality health care I want.

Have you heard of the practice of paying your PCP a retainer?

Works like this. I pay my PCP a $2,000/yr. retainer and my family and I have unlimited access to their resources. No waiting rooms filled with the ‘Obamacare’ type folks. I either call or just walk in and have instant access to my PCP.

If my Doc is already with an 'Obamacare' patient the PCP gets a page that calls them out of the room and brings them to me on the spot, no questions asked. Works great. No waiting rooms, no questions asked. I show up and the Doc is at my beck and call.

Just think about it. A Doc with 200 retained patients makes $400,000/yr without breaking a sweat.

I get free prescriptions, up to $500/yr, and 24/7/365 coverage all while billing Medicare/Medicade/insurance.

It covers everything from a splinter to a broken leg to a double hernia with no waiting.

Talk to your doc and see if he/she offers such coverage.

Robert W. Morgan
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No, it is not fantasy, it just hasn't been scheduled yet

Obamacare is to begin in 2014, scheduled so that when bad things happen, Obama will be past his second election.

And with most things the government handles, it will be far more restrictive and far more expensive than envisioned today.

And yes, Bush was President when the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act chickens came home to roost.

JeffC
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The issue has been blunted Robert

Romney declared that he's in. You may have missed it, what with all the chatter about Cinderella's narcissistic bus tour paid for by her sucker contributors who think she's going to run. She just absolutely cannot stand the thought of Bachmann over-shadowing her can she? She'll probably follow the candidates around during the campaign, critiquing their positions and speeches as an "analyst" for FOX. That should be fun!

The Rs are going to have five or six TEAs running, all of whom agree on virtually everything, and they are going to pull out the long knives and carve each other up with vicious and nasty attack ads to destroy each other. Without policy differences, all that's left is negative advertising. The TEA Party bomb throwers will eat each other and split the extremist vote.

Bachmann is already calling Pawlenty a Marxist.

And I was mistaken that the Rs are all winner-take-all. In fact, they have changed the rules now so that none of the primaries before April can be winner-take-all. It's going to be a long campaign season with plenty of time for the Party bomb throwers like Bachmann to do their damage and split their vote.

I'm pulling for Cain. His FairTax proposal would be so easy to beat. But Romney will walk away with the win.

Chris P. Bacon
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JeffC, regarding Romney (and Huntsman)

I noticed over in the sewer of teh Internets, the infamous free republic dot com, that the owner instituted a new policy this week that any posts that speak favorably of Romney and/or Huntsman will be summarily removed. They aren't "real Republicans", you see...

The owner said the only way Republicans can win the next presidential election is to "refocus" on "what matters most": Abortion and Gay Marriage.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out with our own Freepers here (oofu and Joe Coughy).

Robert W. Morgan
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Blunted, jefe?

The issue has not been blunted as much as it has been distorted and distracted. Obamacare needs to be overturned and thrown out with the rest of the trash.
No sensible Rebublican running for office would disagree. Palin ain't sensible, although as a fund-raiser she's da man! I absolutely love the way she is dissing (sustitute any letter you want) on the press. They do deserve it.
Bachman, Gingrich, Paul are all cartoons.
Romney is serious, but he won't make it to the big show.
Cain might get it done (yes Jeff, I know, no one since Ike won the big prize without being elected to something else before} but probably not.
At this point Pawlenty/Christie is my guess. Or Pawlenty/Jindal - just to get some skin in the game.

roundabout
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Morgan

No one wants the job of running against the President, except those wanting publicity for books, jobs, fame, and maybe next time!

There are several republicans around that I could appreciate running but none of them wants to work that hard to be defeated like McCain!

John still says Sarah could do the "big" job! What else could he say and not admit his mistake? Anyway, he knows it is not going to happen.

I worked for McCain when he ran the first time and was umpteen years younger.

Observerofu
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Straight talking doesn't seen to be your strong suit

And Obama is going to be President under the fall of the current economic system.

Your analogy can only travel so far Jeff on those tired legs. Debt and Deficit issues helped sweep the Democrats from power in 09. What in any of that gives you the idea the American people have forgotten who has tripled that debt and brought us to the precipice?

You know that Obamacare was front loaded in taxes but most of it's programs don't kick in until after the 2012 election. So you are being a bit misleading.

If you don't remember the Republicans got plastered in 06 over many issues including the debt. 2012 may well see Obama staying the Whitehouse but the Senate will most likely fall.

Mike King
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Jeff,

The dems, by there rush to pass Obamacare, tossed a wrench into your "a little this time" approach which tells me that neither party is willing to do anything worthwhile in the near term. Economically speaking.

This country is in dire need of a leader that can transcend both ideological philosophies and make decisions that are apt to piss of some old line politicians. The spending will surely wreck the economy if not reversed, and raising the debt ceiling does nothing toward a fix.

What was the percentage of outproducing the Chinese one, two, three, four, five decades ago? 40% currently is a mere pittance to what it should be. On that, I hope we can agree.

PTC Observer
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Yes - JeffC

The Republicans will raise the debt limit, they are playing the same game as the Democrats.

Neither party is serious about controlling debt, the Democrats don't understand basic accounting, the Republican understand basic accounting but choose not to do anything about it.

Why? Power, money and politics.

George Washington's Farewell Address:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington's_Farewell_Address#Summary_of_address

Read it and weep.

JeffC
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Thanks PTCO

I haven't read Washington's speech in years. Thanks for the link.

Speaking of speeches, I've heard and read a lot of 'em. A lot of 'em. I mean a whole numerous conglomeration of them! Totally off the subject of the blog but that's not a bad thing... here is, in my opinion, one of the best speeches ever given.

I know you've read it before, but how long ago?

I just wish he hadn't sugar-coated it.

Patton's Speech to the Third Army

If we could pull everybody together like that, we could solve all of these problems.

Alas.

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