Obama dumps Israel in favor of Palestine

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Observerofu
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Bacon got proof of those statements yet?

I noticed that the count is up to 6 and as of yet you have not given one bit of backup to those statements.

You can keep calling others liars bacon but you are the only one that has to "backtrack" after being called on them. I mean you sure do seem to have a really "Faulty memory" and all that.

Davids mom
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Oou
Quote:

Disagreeing does not make you right it just makes you disagreeable

Oou, this is also my opinion of you and your insistence that your' opinion' is always right - and you don't have to do any further research. I do appreciate the fact that you seldom resort to personal attacks. NOT !! You are always correct because you are a proud conservative who will never accept that a liberal citizen just may have something to offer to a discussion. Yes, I may sound like I'm pontificating , but I sincerely believe that problems can be solved by people working together with respect and civility.

Observerofu
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Then you should try it sometime

instead of ignoring the points made in a topic. You like to ask questions but you never answer any. Why is that?

maximus
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You have such a big heart, Baked

Those selfish Ayn Rand types might not be doing what you think they should be doing for other people. Therefore, the gubment needs to step in and force them to be better.

Maybe you should get out of your mom’s basement and lead by example. Or would that be too much work? It’s much easier to sit there and cry about how some other selfish “I…Me…Mine” person who is actually producing something that people want should be forced to give more to others.

Typical socialist/communist/progressive/ thinking. You say there are no simple solutions, but the libtard solution is simply always more government.

Chris P. Bacon
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Those selfish Ayn Rand types..

Those selfish Ayn Rand acolytes quickly learn to speak out of the other side of their mouth when disaster strikes. Most recent case was that Oklahoma representative who mocked tornado preparedness money going to Joplin Missouri just last year....F5 tornado hits and presto-chango he's now a fan of big gummint coming to the rescue.

Thank you for the personal attacks too, Maxanus.

carbonunit52
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When the going gets tough

the tough run to the government. Ayn Rand collected Social Security when she needed it, and I am glad that it was there for her.

AtHomeGym
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Carbo & The Club

I know you're simply overjoyed that Herr Fatback has seen fit to initiate/or recognize you as part of--his little club that he believes repudiates everything from those he disagrees with. I just want you to know that I don't see it that way--I think you are more pragmatic and will call things as you see them from your personal perspective rather than a single ideological viewpoint. And if this post has damaged your standing in his "club"--well, sorry 'bout dat'!

NUK_1
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I'm in a strange Club

Looks like a lot of damn progressives to me :) Oh well, I guess I get along well enough with them even though we disagree on a lot of issues. That USED to be what America was about at one time, strangely enough.

AtHomeGym
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Nuk & The Club

I think you got in because your leaningalso starts with "liber..."!

carbonunit52
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No problem AHG

I believe "the club membership" is for those who have indentified their political position as being left of center, at least, that is how I understand it. I appreciate the feedback and your own reasonalble approach. My method is to not write the first or second things that come into my mind, because unlike crops, the third and later pickings are more fruitful.

maximus
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Where do you think the “aid” comes from, baked?

Obamao pulls it out of his keister? It’s confiscated by our dear, benevolent leaders in Washington from the citizens of Missouri and then some of it finds its way back to the state in the form of “disaster aid”. The people would be much better off if the money was never confiscated in the first place.

Speaking of personal attacks, Maxanus is pretty funny, but Maximass (Hack’s creation) is a little catchier.

kevink
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Maximus: Your party made this bed you must now sleep in.

No democrat told you guys to attack "big government" as some mythical beast that devours civilization. I'm in Oklahoma right now. Every single county in Oklahoma voted for John McCain. Oklahoma Senators and Congressman are on record not wanting to raise the nation's debt limit.

Maximus, guess who Oklahomans are waiting for now? Who are we seeking help for on this very horrible and deadly day?

You won't hear Inhofe attacking Global Climate Change for a while. Right now he is most likely talking with that HUGE GOVERNMENT AGENCY known as FEMA who will help, I pray, many Oklahoma families receive food and shelter in their time of need and personal loss. And, had the democratic healthcare plan passed undiluted, they would not be facing bankrupting medical bills in the near future.

Frankly, Maximus, your party's policies are losing thier usefullness in the world we live in. Just look at the hot potato Paul Ryan's "budget" has become.

Carry on my friend.

maximus
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You’re spewing Incoherent gibberish, Hack

Like I was saying to sniffy, where did the money come from to fund FEMA? It was confiscated from the Oklahomans and now I’m sure they’re hoping to get a little bit of it back. Your heroes in Washington are doing nothing but taking their money and then giving a small part of it back in return for expected votes.

Joe Kawfi
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Maximus

What do you expect from a bedwetting liberal like DIva haCK.
Hack, Diva, Kevin - or whatever you are calling yourself this week - can we just call you DICK?

FEMA - Just another bloated, incompetent Federal program, courtesy of the Carter (malaise) administration.

kevink
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Maximus and Jokeawfi. Do you have insurance?

If your house burns down, or blows away, or floats away, where does the money to fix it come from? It is "confiscated" by other insured folks and given to you. How terrible! If, heaven forbid, you have major surgery, do you write a check for 40 or 50 or a hundred grand? Or is money "confiscated" from other insured folks and unjustly given to you for your care? Like i said fellas, your political ideas have lost their uselessness :-). Kathy Hochul in New York's 26th district is just one VERY CLEAR EXAMPLE of the VERY COHERENT, NON-GIBBERISH message that you gents can listen to or ignore. It really matters not, because foks have seen how the republican lead congress has accomplished nothing. Seems like HOPE and CHANGE are back :-)

Jokeawfi oh ignorant one, seems you lack the ability to grasp even the most basic of facts: You have been replying to KevinK for months and months and months yet you can't figure out what I call myself? My guess is you won't EVER be man enough to actually show up to a coffee get together and share your lack of ideas with me or anyone else in the light of day. Here is a question a coward like you won't answer: Have you blogged under any other screen names?

maximus
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Ridiculous analogy, Hack

I willingly entered into a private contract with USAA along with a large group of other willing people. All of us know that the pool of our money will be used to pay claims if someone’s house is blown away in a tornado. We also know that if someone chose not to participate then they get nothing. It’s their choice.

The same is true with my health insurance. I willingly, for now, pay for it. The government’s function in this case is to enforce the contracts.

More socialists/communists/progressives getting elected to congress is proof of nothing except that enough people there have the ignorant belief in those systems.

kevink
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Maximus. I'll ask this: One USAA member to another.

If I am in El Reno burried beneath what use to be my house, what services, prey tell, can I expect to receive from non-government sources? What should I expect of the private sector as I fight to stay alive? As you know, this is not purely hypothetical. I don't think your world view will find a champion any time soon.

maximus
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Hack, my friend...

If you're waiting for FEMA or any "federal disaster response worker" to come to your rescue you might as well kiss your keister good bye!

Like I said to Jeff, Disaster response should be driven by state and local governments. Your neighbors are your best shot in that situation followed by your local fire fighters and police, and possibly the National Guard under the control of your governor.

Of course since the leeches in Washington have sucked so much money out of our hides, funding these true first responders is just that much more difficult.

Hopefully you can hang on for the extra hours or days that FEMA has cost you.

JeffC
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They are against FEMA Kevink

They oppose FEMA Kevin. You're arguing with anarchists.

Kathy Hochul kicked butt in New York in a complete repudiation of Ryan's Medicare legislation. Looks like the Tea Party racked up 8%.

I believe Ryan may have saved the Senate for us already and it hasn't even really begun yet. Lord knows what kind of stuff they're going to say trying to out-rightwing each other during the primaries. Let's have more debates!

kevink
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Jeff. I have to remind myself that these are thoughtful and

intelligent folks sometimes. Because when I think of people having the idea that there should be no large, competent, well-equipped and integrated disaster response entity, I have to wonder. Who do these guys think will respond to the coming Nuclear Winter that, judging by their apocolyptic predictions, is headed our way? Do we go to our local church for triage? I do believe the right wing's crazy talk will be the gift that keeps on giving. It's just a shame that people hate the lack of anarchy so much.

Davids mom
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Democrats united

One down , and as the Republicans implode, more to go! It is important for the country to 'hear' the extremists in the Republican Party. As the 'truth' becomes apparent, and Democrats stand firm, those who are willing to work for their constituents and not just for their 'party' will be sent to leadership positions in our country. Go New York! Kawfi and Oou and 'others'. . . .thank you!

maximus
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Whose talking about anarchy, Jeff?

Disaster response should be driven by state and local governments.

The good news here is that the latest $1.5 Billion going to FEMA will be coming out of the Energy Department's "fuel efficient vehicle" program.

maximus
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You said it, DM

"Since the recording of history, there has been conflict between Syrians, Jordanians, and Palestinians."

But if they would just go back to the 1967 borders the Palestinians would let the Israelis live in peace, and everything would be all hunky-dory.

Davids mom
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Maximus

Many Palestinians are already living in peace in Israel. It is the terrorist activity and bombings (from both sides) that breaks the peace By law, the discussions must start from the 1967 boundaries . The idea of swapping in order to provide continued security is absolutely necessary. I agree with Israel, Hamas must be reckoned with. . .one cannot trust one who denies ones existence . There are no simple answers to this problem . . but the violence has got to stop.

Gort
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OofU, perhaps I can help you

OofU, perhaps I can help you with this question. Jeane Kirkpatrick worked for President Ronald Reagan as the US Ambassador to the United Nations. She started her political career as a socialist.

Is that close enough? I can never remember the correct etiquette, is the exchange rate two communist for a socialist or is it the other way around?

If you look up her name in “Wikipedia” they have three very nice pictures of her at the White House.

PTC Observer
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Heck Gort

There were all kinds of Communists and Socialists crawling all over the White House during the FDR days, what's the big deal when Mr. Obama wants to do it?

If you elect a socialist to the White House what do you expect?

I just don't get the big deal on this one, or should I say the New Deal?

Gort
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PTC_0*, I’m with you on this

PTC_0*, I’m with you on this one. I don’t get it either. If President Ronald Reagan can ‘pal around’ with socialist in the White House why not President Obama. Why the double standard.

Back in the days of FDR, weren’t the socialist and communist of that era just the equivalent “grass roots organization” that the “Teaparty” is now?

PTC Observer
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Gort - You are

absolutely correct, it's just that the Tea Party as I understand their three pillars, is simply the other direction from the socialists.

Either way, we have had many, many socialists and communists in the White House over the years. Mr. Obama's principles require that he invite them and I am sure he sees no problems with it. I certainly see no problem with it, as he won the election. It appears that there are many that forget this small fact. The White House is the people's house, they elected Mr. Obama. You get what you elect, hope and change......and socialists in the White House. ;-)

Gort
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PTC_0*, I’m not quite sure

PTC_0*, I’m not quite sure where you’re going with this. Are you inferring that capitalism and socialism are not compatible? That may be true if you are an extremist for either point of view but I look around and see the two co-existing.

Capitalist don’t have any reservation making investments in foreign countries like say China. If there weren’t laws on the books to prevent it, I bet capital investments would flow into countries like Cuba. Is that not so?

Besides, the debate isn’t really to decide if the US is capitalist or socialist. That fact is, we are a capitalist country with some social programs. Is this not so?

PTC Observer
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Gort - I

I am moving this reply to the top of the page so we don't deal with one column answers.

Gort
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D_Mom, after all is said and

D_Mom, after all is said and done, I really do think OofU is a worthy adversary. It is true that I ‘poke and prod’ the “OofU” but I only do it because he is the mightiest conservative political warrior on this forum.

What knowledge or pleasure could be gained if we spent our time agreeing with one another or taking our swipes at a lesser adversary?

I ‘poke and prod’ the mighty “OofU” because I will learn more and become stronger by pulling the “tail of the OofU tiger.”

Besides, he finally answered my question. Better late than never, eh?

Observerofu
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What about it Gort it doesn't go far enough

It's a start only. I don't answer you very much gort you are not serious in discussing the real issues. You would rather poke and prod just to see what sticks. I sort of put you in the same category as roundabout.

Gort
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OofU, how could you say such

OofU, how could you say such cruel things after all the good times we had on this forum? 8 – )

Anyway, I thank you for your answer. If I understand what you are telling me, the “Paul Ryan” roadmap to the debt crisis plan, passed the Republican House, does not go far enough. Is that correct?

How much farther do you think it should go?

Observerofu
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Gort the 18 enumerated powers

Article 1 Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Gort anything outside these 18 SPENDING provisions is unsupportable.

Chris P. Bacon
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Observerofu now pro-choice on abortion?

So, Mr. Enumerated Powers, judging from your cut-n-paste above, may we presume that you no longer support any restrictions on abortion at the federal level?

I look forward to your upcoming rhetorical gymnastics.

Gort
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CPB, I'm so disappointed with

CPB, I'm so disappointed with OofU’s answer. A good mind is a terrible thing to waste on a “cut and paste.”

Observerofu
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Well fatback and Gort

It is a State issue. The Federal Government has no arthority over the issue much like Marriage.

btw- The Constitution was already written I saw no need to re-write it like you guys seem to want to do.

Observerofu
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Wikipedia Dmom?

"Other terms for the same area include Canaan, Zion, the Land of Israel, Syria Palaestina, Southern Syria, Jund Filastin, Outremer, the Holy Land and the Southern Levant.[6]"

Please show me where the State of Palestine resides?

Please show me there writings, their history, their books?

Please show me their Government and their political leaders?

There was no State of Palestine Dmom. For a teacher I pity your pupils.

Davids mom
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oou

You're one of those students who read but don't comprehend; listen, but don't hear; see, but have no vision. I'm surprised you even know about Wikipedia. Do the research yourself. Did you ever hear of the Philistines? Goliath? Myths based on actual existence of Middle East civilizations. You 'peeked' at the outline - and did no further research to broaden your understanding. You are an embarrassment to a so-called educated populace. (But - you're entertaining.) :-)

Observerofu
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Dmom remember the 6 day war?

When Israel kicked Egypt and Jordon's collective butt whose land was occupied?

Palestine or Jordon?

Davids mom
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Oou - research

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

Do some in depth research regarding this conflict in the Middle East. Don't overlook 1099 or the result of the Crusaders involvement. Go beyond 'labels' and research the background of those residents of the Middle East who call themselves Palestinians. The 6 Day War is the tip of the iceberg - generations of 'hate ' between the inhabitants of this region, long before the end of WWII. The Wiki reference is under dispute, but I think you will find additional research interesting. Humans have died because of the words ' there is no Palestine'. Include in your research the era before Christ.

Observerofu
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Dmom see my response to Jeff in their own words

there is no Palestine.

Seems like it only became "their" State after that 6 day war when they LOST.

Davids mom
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Oou

Please answer based on research - not ego.

Observerofu
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Dmom

Your lack of an intellectual argument is noted.

btw- also noted another question you failed to answer.
Funny how you say you always answer.

Chris P. Bacon
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Poor poor pitiful oofu

Had you read the article, which you obviously did not, you'd have learned that four "new" nations were carved out of the old defeated Ottoman Empire post-world war one via the Franco-British boundary agreement of 1920. Palestine, Mesopotamia (now Iraq), Syria and Jordan. Palestine was then governed under British mandate until 1948.

Davids mom
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Chris P Bacon
Quote:

Had you read the article

See above for the operative words. This was the kid who, if in college, thought he could pass with a high grade by browsing the Cliff Notes.

JeffC
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Robert W

That would be Dennis Ross.

AtHomeGym
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Jeff C & Diplomacy

Do you think it's a great idea to surprise an long-time Allie with a public announcement about an issue that anyone with an once of policical sense knows will be controversial and piss off the ally?

JeffC
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AtHomeGym & Diplomacy

No. I agree. Netanyahu should not have announced that he was authorizing 1200 new settlement units in Palestine the day before he left to visit President Obama. It was a direct slap in the face.

bladderq
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Does this dress make my butt look big?

It is about time someone told the Jewish state that in order to achieve peace, sumpin's gotta give. That dress does make your butt look big.
About another 30 mins and all the O-man's opponent true believers will be up in smoke anyway.

JeffC
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Alas bladderq

The rapture prediction turned out false, as all Bible readers already knew.

However, the end is yet near. Don't forget that SkyNet became self-aware on April 19th.

Davids mom
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AHG

It was reported that our Ally knew about what Obama was going to say - and tried to get Hillary Clinton to have him leave that part out of his statement. I don't know about the validity of that - but he certainly handled his objection to Obama's idea with civility. No shouting or walking off the stage or shaking his finger in Obama's face.
Pissed or not - this issue must be addressed - as the issue of Israel's security and dealing with Hamas.

kevink
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Observerofu. When attempting a smear campaign. Do your homework

It pays to actually know that there HAS in fact been a Palestine in history. It pays to know in fact that the two state, 1967 border idea has been The United States' policy through two previous Presidents.

As you *conservativey guys throw everything at the prez hoping something sticks, you might, at a minimum, do your homework. You obviously don't need original thoughts, but at least get the facts straight. Otherwise you simply look petty. And I have come to expect more from you than a typical thoughtless Robert Morgan or Jokeawfi. But this blog, my friend, is par for their putt putt course.

And, by the way, this isn't helping you find a suitable GOP candidate to take back America is it? No, it isn't. But you DID say you "don't have much time for politics." I'm sure that's why you drafted this ill-conceived thread.

But it is all quite entertaining watching Hawkish Republicans adopt a stance that the leader of the free world should lick Israel's boots. I don't anticipate you getting much traction being that our President has been consistent with set US policy in this area.

Must really suck to be a *republican these days, having to watch the slow process of November 2012 coming and going without being able to field a challenger for the "communist, socialist, leninist, anti-colonial Kenyan" that is the current "decider."

But at least conservatives are having fun with their circular Ryan budget firing squads. Makes good theater.

Chris P. Bacon
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"doesn't have time for politics"

I agree, observerofu's claim that he "doesn't have time for politics" is the most damning evidence yet of his complete and utter divorce from reality.

Chris P. Bacon
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Grubby Herman Cain exposes his ignorance

Grubby Herman Cain was on the Sunday Fox News talk show yesterday and inadvertently exposed his colossal ignorance about Palestinians.

"In what respect, Chris?"

Even with Chris Wallace gently guiding him along, it was clear that Cain had no idea what he was talking about.

Grubby Herman is finding out that you need a bit more than sound bites iffin you wants to be taken seriously.

Oh, and all you Baconhaters who are gonna reflexively come to Grubby Herman's defense? Try and imagine your reaction had President Barack Obama said something this ignorant about foreign policy. Then tell me you don't have a double standard.

mudcat
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I wish you would stop calling Herman Cain "Grubby"

It is inaccurate and insulting. It makes you appear even more immature than you are. It is possible to disagree with someone without name-calling. In fact, the name-calling underscores the fact that you lack the vocabulary or thought process to articulate specific concerns you may have with Mr. Cain. It is the same thing as someone who habitually uses four-letter swear words - no thoughts, no vocabulary. Surely your mother did not condone this type of behavior.

Anyway, on to Herman Cain, he really did drop the ball with Chris Wallace last night and it will probably hurt him. Eisenhower was the only President elected in the last 100 years that had not been elected previously to some government office. We all understand how that happened 6 Years after WWII and why. Probably safe to say Herman is not Ike and has very little chance of of pulling this off. I do wish he didn't keep shutting the door on a VP slot because that is where he would have the most value - bringing fire and brimstone to the inevitably boring Republican Presidential candidate.

See Chris B., one can critique someone, disagree and even dismiss without using bad language or insults. And actually Obama did say something ignorant about foreign policy - the let's pull Israel back to the 1967 borders comment was far worse than anything Cain has ever said or just punted on like he did last night. What makes Obama's ignorance worse is that he is President.

And by the way, I think Chris Wallace has grown into a better interviewer than his father. I really enjoy watching him.

roundabout
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MUD

One of the meanings of "grubby" is contemptible! The man does irritate me with his emotional black or LA preacher type of speaking. That is worse than calling names in my opinion! How would he represent the USA for us?

One can be for Motherhood, apple pie, and chevrolet without being qualified for ANYTHING. Pizza?

Obviously you din't hear president Obama's speech to the Israeli Group Saturday. The '67 Israeli lines is a "starting point" of negotiations. The rest of current Israel has been taken by force and with no agreements.

Afraid Obama knows more history than most of us!

If Chris Wallace can ever accomplish as much as his Father has for the USA in one year in his entire life he will be lucky.
He is A FOX desk dummy!

BHH
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Isreal was forced to expand their borders

in order to prevent losing their own space. That fact in itself is the next step in the negotiations that Obama suggests.

The ball is now in their court.

Robert W. Morgan
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Mrs. Fran Sheldon is going to scold all of you

The name calling is in very poor taste and the funniest of Steve Brown's alternate identities - Mrs. Fran Sheldon will not be amused. You can count on being taken to the woodshed.

Chevrolet is part of Gummint' Motors - not the icon it once was. Go Ford!

Cain is simply another Trump, although he comes across as being more serious, which of course scares the libs - black man off the plantation and all that. No Herman is in it for that money-making title "Former Presidential Contender" and a book deal. Maybe a gig on Fox. Money grubbing might be a more polite way of saying it.

Observerofu
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He can't help it Mud

He childishly attacks anyone with whom he has a disagreement. Instead of arguing against those viewpoints he would rather just insult, thus somehow proving his moral superiority, claim a victory and move on spreading those same attacks across multiple topics.

He has no argument. He doesn't know how to debate. That is why I call him a Pseudo-Intellectual. He thinks he is more intelligent then the rest of us but I have a cat with more common sense.

PTC Observer
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Well said Mud

But don't expect C.P.Bacon to change his ways, there is a method to his madness. There are reasons that people of Bacon's political persuasion use this method of debate, bullying is always the way of social engineers, tyrants and unionists. Whether it is verbal, "legal" or physical force is the only way socialism can hope to work to counter the truth of human nature and the Rights of Men.

Bacon’s positions are not logically or morally defensible he knows this and this is why he acts out on these pages.

Now let's hear from the word master!

Chris P. Bacon
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Mudcat, regardin' Grubby Herman Cain

If I understand you correctly, you've got issues with me referring to Herman Cain as "grubby", yet a few paragraphs later you refer to President Obama as "ignorant" not once but twice?

Do you not see just a wee bit of double standard here?

BHH
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The lessor of evils

It always boils down to the lessor of evils. And with Bin Laden gone Obama is the next most evil.

So anyone will be a lessor evil.

Gort
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*

* whoops, wrong place!

PTC Observer
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Gort - Answering

Your question:

Gort from a practical standpoint they are not totally incompatible but they have philosophical differences in their goals. One simply is based on the principle of freedom and the other exists through force. It is clear that social programs designed to economically level the playing field have not worked too well and they continue to create a lot of wasted capital within the market. Socialism requires that people be forced to do something that as individuals they may not want to do.

In a way Capitalism is not so much tied to a political philosophy but Socialism is because it requires the power of the State to compel compliance to its principles. Capitalism on the other hand is all about individual freedom and the free flow of capital it is based on free markets without government interference. Thus, you have Capitalists investing in China a Socialist state because it is in their best interest to do so. Now when I say their best interests, I actually mean the interests of their customers. In Capitalism the customer is king, it is the customer who decides what product or service to use. It is up to the creativity, skill, and ability of the capitalist to fulfill this need. It is up to the Capitalist to decide how he can best address the customer’s need at the lowest possible cost. In a way the customer votes with their dollars. No amount of gerrymandering by governments or unions change these facts.

Contrast this to Socialism, someone in government decides based on some “vision” of the way things should be and they pass a law or regulation to accomplish this vision. This law or regulation through legal coercion compels a consumer to do something they would otherwise not do. The best recent example is the health care legislation just passed by the Congress. There are a great number of people that believe it is the government’s role to provide health care for all of its citizens. They believe that with all their heart. So, they have their representatives in government pass a law making buying health care mandatory. If you don’t purchase it then you are penalized financially. We’ll not go into the waiver issue here but it shows how even the “vision” has exceptions; and those are likely caused by the reality of the market.

Anyway, we clearly need social programs in the broadest sense, but we don’t need social programs that try and “level the playing field” based on some vision by the political elite. The social programs we need are those that protect our rights and protect them especially against the power of the government itself. These include a strong military, police controlled by the rule of law, and a judicial system compelled to administrate justice. Justice is freedom.

Gort
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PTC_0*, a bit windy today,

PTC_0*, a bit windy today, isn’t it? 8 - ) Alas, we agree on something, “From a practical standpoint they, (capitalism and socialism,) are not totally incompatible.” (Sorry I can’t answer line by line. Just too much for the time I have available.)

My position in this argument is, if capitalism or socialism is taken to the extreme, they are equally bad economic systems that will lead to unrest and rebellion.

Example 1: Batista’s Cuba was a free-wheeling bastion of “Free Market Capitalism” in the 1950’s and early 60’s. The government held the country together by brute force. The moneyed up special interest squeezed the peasants so tight the peasants rebelled and won. Goodbye capitalism.

Example 2: The USSR so dominated their satellite countries with soviet style central planning, they had to build the “Iron Curtain” to keep people from trying to escape. The countries were held together with brute force. They squeezed the people so tight they rebelled the only way they could. The people created an underground economy that undermined the legitimacy of the government. Internal and external forces converged and the government collapsed under its own weight. Goodbye communism.

My examples may not be perfect but these things happened all in my lifetime, is this not so?

PTC Observer
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Gort - a bit

A bit windy I guess but my points are made...but anything carried to an extreme is incompatible with even a fractional difference in philosophy.

I happen to think that we have moved too far to the socialist position that's all. Way, way too far.

Your examples aren't perfect, because neither example is to the extreme.

Example 1 could have been the USA in the late 19th Century, it vanished with government activism in the early 20th Century. We as a nation have never repeated the wealth creation of this capitalist era.

Example 2 could have been North Korea, it's still standing through force.

BTW, the thing that ended the Soviet Empire was overspending on weapons and a failed policy in Afghanistan....makes you wonder doesn't it?

Joe Kawfi
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Libs

Just amazing that the libs plan on actually running this moron Obama next year after all of his failed policies.

- No return on "stimulus" investment
- Cash for clunkers - The only real clunker was the program itself. It did NOTHING for the automobile industry.
- Failed Obamacare - The program is such a big failure, that all of Obama's elite cronies have to go hat in hand to the White House for their own personal exemption.
- Guantanamo - still open - Obama lied.
- Iraq War - still in progress afer Obama promised to pull the troops - another lie.
- Libya - Obama sending troops to a country that has not attacked America and has bombed a city, killing innocent civilians.

One could go on, and on, and on with the miserable failure this "president" has turned out to be.

maximus
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Hillary could still run, Joe.

How sad is it that that would be a welcome change?

JeffC
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oops, wrong place - deleted

...

kevink
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Maximus. We just have had differing experiences I guess.

" Disaster response should be driven by state and local governments"

So, Maximus. Snow melt and rain run off start in Minnesota. It makes its way to Vicksburg, Mississippi and Memphis, Tennessee. And you say it is a Mississippi and Tennessee problem to pay for and solve on the state dime? Okay.

I was in Vicksburg two weeks ago. Oklahoma Tuesday. Memphis yesterday. On the ground in Birmingham today. Walking around, talking to folks. FEMA is not a dirty word., it is helping many Americans get through this stuff.

Davids mom
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Kevin

Have you witnessed neighbor helping neighbor during these horrific events? Others who have been to some of these areas also report positively regarding FEMA involvement. Many are horrified by what they see in TV.

Robert W. Morgan
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Hey Moms, just had a tree fall on my neighbors house

Who is going to bail us out? gummint'? City? Ha ha.

JeffC
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Tree on my house too Robert

1:30 in the morning. POW, CRASH!. Hit the side of the house and fell across the deck. Crushed most of the deck but the house is okay. It was REALLY exciting!

Being a classical liberal instead of a neo-progressive liberal, y'all will understand that I'm not going to call FEMA or the city. We actually hate the government dealing with us personally; we just want it to tell everybody else what to do.

Besides, I really like my chainsaw.

Robert W. Morgan
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Atta boy, Jeff. Glad no one was hurt

Decks are replaceable. Self-reliance (and of course a chain saw) are wonderful things.

My neighbor's tree was cut up into some fairly large pieces by 3 of us (and 2 chain saws) before the power came back on. He'll be surprised when he gets home this weekend.

How does a classical liberal differ from a Libertarian or even a Republican (like me) that cringes when anyone thinks government and social issues belong together? Self-reliance, limited government, fiscal responsibility, secure borders are all good things - arn't they?

roundabout
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Morgan

We must have the government, elected by the majority, to protect most of us from people like you!!

Can't you just imagine the pollution, the crooked bank's actions, the corporate QC, and worker's treatment, if we had no regulations or control?

10 year olds would again mine coal! Water would taste like hydrogen-Sulfide and feces! Old timey sheriffs would make their salary off them yankees drivin thru. Service stations would squirt oil under an old couple's car and say they had to change out the engine!

roundabout
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Jeff

I suspect you will call the insurance company and deduct the loss from your humongous taxes? If you cut your leg off with the saw you will appreciate the socialized medicine!
A chain saw? Didn't know that you were a red-nek! buzuddin-buzidden, bzz, bzz, disturb the deaf squirrels!

Plan to burn it or have FEMA or the Guard haul it off?

kevink
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Davidsmom: I met alot of wonderful people these last few days.

In Oklahoma on HWY 74 south of Crescent, one of the most beautiful farms and horse stables on that highway was destroyed. Neighbors from all around were helping chase down pictures, clean up debris, and provide refreshments.

memphis is on the mend. Lots of stinky river mud and drift wood higher on the landscape than it should be. But people are being cared for. They are not "on their own." Still a beautiful downtown, it was just a bit deserted.

Vicksburg is a favorite of mine because it has a top notch civil war park and museum. north of the city folks have taken huge property losses. The sopirits are good. Many people were pitching in three weeks ago laying railroad ties and tar. Their make shift flood wall saved the Flying Biscuit as well as a children's park and a couple great watering holes. The Yazoo City Train Station wasn't so lucky. FEMA has been in Vicksburg, Greenwood, Tunica, and Eagle Lake for weeks. People are cared for and caring for one another, but when your whole neighborhood is flooded, your neighbor won't be of much help.

Birmingham was heart breaking. I couldn't eat breakfast or lunch because I felt so much guilt. I don't know why, exactly, but surronded by so much loss, I just felt guilty that I was not suffering. Those folks are awesome. Cutting the yards where the house no longer existed. Dusting off radios, fans, kids toys, chairs... anything to give a small feeling of normalcy and memories of the time before the twister. FEMA is there providing shelter. Providing FEMA phones so folks who literally lost it ALL can call family and say "I am alright." Again, when a whole neighborhood is whiped out, one doesn't have the luxury of leaning on your neighbor. Anyone who thinks Alabama or Mississippi had all of the needed resources to provide heavy debris lifting, flood planning, aerial survey, engineering expertise, economic support of victims, etc is living in a dilusional world of "I shouldn't have to pay any taxes for anything." It is stupifying that these folks see the only valid use of taxes as paying their republican legislators' salaries and waging wars. Amazing. I hope some of these folks roll their sleaves up and walk the walk. Alot of folks need alot of things today. And it isn't that far a drive.

Cheers

roundabout
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Kevink: FEMA

This appears to be an honest evaluation of those situations caused by the tornadoes! Thank you, very much.

FEMA is better organized and run now than at Katrina. It still needs more organization and funds.

I think some people evaluate the reaction to this type of disaster inappropriately, in that FEMA is an emergency organization, set up to assist immediately to provide necessities for a short period of time.

They will never be an organization that rebuilds cities and makes everyone whole!
That is the function of those who live there.

Some people like to use chain saws, some do not, (and don't have one).

kevink
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Roundabout. You are spot on

FEMA is the big bandaid, ice pack, and gauze. They aren't the follow up visit or long term physical therapy. But they are great folks doing some hard sweaty work.

Cheers

Davids mom
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Kevin

Thanks for sharing. Government providing services that we can't provide for ourselves. FEMA, agencies like the Red Cross, and neighbors working together. . Cell phones. We seldom imagine being without them today . There are groups here in Fayette County and elsewhere who are waiting for the go-ahead to help clean up after the search and rescue phase is complete in some areas. An organized FEMA is working. Lessons learned from Katrina being applied. Sorry to hear about the damage to homes here in Fayette County.

AtHomeGym
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KevinK, Max, & FEMA

When I was a Plans Officer at Forces Command, I had to deal with these actions routinely. Of course FEMA has its positive values but the Governor must officially request Fed assistance before they get involved. Many Govs will exhaust state resources (manpower,equipment,supplies) before they ask for Fed assistance.

roundabout
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GYM

In those days, FEMA was a joke---all plans and no hat! This was proved by Katrina!