Obama dumps Israel in favor of Palestine

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Observerofu
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" President Barack Obama is endorsing the Palestinians’ demand for their future state to be based on the borders that existed before the 1967 Middle East war, in a move that will likely infuriate Israel. Israel says the borders of a Palestinian state have to be determined through negotiations.

In a speech outlining U.S. policy in the Middle East and North Africa, Obama on Thursday sided with the Palestinians’ opening position a day ahead of a visit to Washington by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu is vehemently opposed to referring to the 1967 borders." http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-endorses-palestinian-border-demands/

“The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state. ” President Obama

Well another Allie gone. How many do we have left?

Chris P. Bacon
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Poor Bebe!

Benjamin "Bebe" Netanyahu and his looney-right fringe supporters in Israel believe they have a right to retain territory conquered in war, even though retaining conquered territory is strictly prohibited under the Geneva Conventions.

I believe the reason Observerofu supports Netanyahu is because he, like Bebe, loathes the Geneva Conventions (and American troops, natch!)

America should have retained Germany and Japan after World War 2, plus Grenada, Panama, Kuwait and Iraq later. Sure, we lost Vietnam, but they never conquered any American territory so it's all good.

PTC Observer
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Bacon - The

entire country of Israel was conquered in war, should the Jews leave? Disband Israel? Is this what you are suggesting?

The United States was taken by the revolutionaries from Great Britain, should we disband, give it back?

Just trying to understand your thought process here, if you have one.

Chris P. Bacon
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Petey C and the 4th GC!
PTC Observer wrote:

entire country of Israel was conquered in war, should the Jews leave? Disband Israel? Is this what you are suggesting?

The United States was taken by the revolutionaries from Great Britain, should we disband, give it back?

Just trying to understand your thought process here, if you have one.

The Fourth Geneva Convention was ratified in 1949. Prior to the ratification of the Fourth Geneva Convention, disposition of conquered territory was up to the whim of the conqueror.

Got a more recent example to obfuscate the issue?

Ninja Guy
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Bacon Loves International Law

Bacon, that Geneva Convention thingy is international law, you you know that international law is a BAD thing that the US should never abide by! International law is a creation of the Tri-lateral commission, communists, and bird watchers!

Suck it Up Braves! Beat the sub-500 teams like you are supposed to!

Mike King
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CBP

Would Tibet count as an occupied country? I'm sure the Dalai Lama wish to obfuscate the Chinese presence.

Chris P. Bacon
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Hola King Mike!

Good question....is Tibet a "country" participatin' in the United Nations and/or a signatory to the Geneva Conventions? I honestly don't know.

p.s. reports from the Bin Laden attack say that the one helicopter crashed due to "too much hot, thin air...making it impossible to hover". As Fayette county's noted authority on the "involuntary conversion of military helicopters", does this explanation sound plausible to you?

Mike King
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Hola, Back To You My Learned Friend

It would appear to me that the term given,"too much hot, thin air...making it impossible to hover",is a DOD attempt at obfuscating another term we helicopter jocks use from time to time, pilot error. Of course I wasn't there, but I'm sure others on this blog might venture to divulge their expertise.

Your question regarding occupying countries since 1949 did peak my curiosity because I would have thought that countries such as Hungary and The Czech Republic would qualify due to that thing with Russian tanks back in the sixties, but since they were already there, it didn't count.

Chris P. Bacon
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Maintainin' the fiction

Good point there, Michael, regarding the old Commie satellite nations. As I recall (and if I'm mistaken I'm sure the usual ankle-biters will be out in force momentarily..)the whole concept of the Communist bloc was that these puppet governments in Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, East Germany, etc were nominally "independent" of Mother Russia, although the Russkies were basically propping up their militaries and puppeteering their governments.

PTC Observer
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Bacon - OK

I understand now, thanks

PTC Observer
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Bacon - ?

Bacon here is a site that I think is consistent with your position, it is well researched and takes the Palestinian position.

http://www.prc.org.uk/newsite/en/right-of-return/historical-background/1...

Here is the ADL website explaining why Israel believes the 4th Geneva Convention does not apply in the case of the 1967 war.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/geneva....

Now if you compare these two positions, you have the Palestinians calling for the use of the 4th GC to essentially desolve Israel. I suppose that moving the lines back to the 1967 position gives them some degree of legitimacy concerning the 4th GC. The outcome is to just move the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea I suppose.

The Israelis on the other hand say that because they were attacked by countries that occupied the surrounding land to Israel at the time, this territory gain was defensive. Therefore their occupation is for defensive purposes and can go on as long as they are threaten. I don't think the threat is deminished since 1967, do you?

So, now let's take your position for the sake of argument. What exactly would you do with all of these Israelis if they moved the lines back to the 1967 lines. Do you know how big Israel is? Would they become displaced persons? Modern Israel has only existed since 1948, the Palestinians are saying that the GC should be retroactive. So, what would you do with all of the Israelis if they simply got rid of Israel? Send them all back to Europe?

Just trying to understand your position here and I suppose by extension the position of Mr. Obama.

Chris P. Bacon
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Give Israeli settlers the "full Ramsey" treatment...

Petey, I understand the creation of the nation of Israel was a messy affair but bottom line, the British kicked Turkish and Palestinian ass and they were instrumental in carving out a Jewish country. I understand the Palestinian butthurt but that's how things were done back then.

I was a amused by your link to the Zionist position, a splendid piece of lawyering. It reminded me of one of Observerofu's pissy little rants, in which he categorically disputes each and every point that that doesn't agree with his preconceived notion.

(Also, the "only the Swiss can judge us!" line reminded me of a gangbanger in prison smugly stating "only God can judge me!")

What would I do with the millions of displaced illegal settlers in Gaza and the West Bank? I'd give them the exact courtesy that Fayette Rep Gestapo Matty Ramsey gives to illegal settlers in Georgia: none!

The Gospel according to Ramsey sez we can uproot people who've been here for a long time and arbitrarily send them elsewhere if we deem them to be "illegal". We're a world of laws remember?

PTC Observer
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Chris - Sooooo

You would send them back across the boarder (pre-existing 1967 War boarder)?

Then what?

Wait for the rest of the surrounding countries to pour into the "old occupied lands" right up to the new border, you know like Syria, Iran, Jordan, etc. Kind of like it was in 1967, you know when they tried and failed to invade Israel, and got their butts kicked.

Then what?

Stand by and let the Jewish nation be overrun by the countries sworn to wipe them out? A Jewish nation that happens to own nukes.

Great solution Bacon, Yasser would be proud of you for coming up with a perfect solution to this problem, a final solution of sorts.

Chris P. Bacon
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Doomin' and Gloomin' Petey C?

Yes, I would have the illegal aliens sent back to their mother country.

I have no interest whatsoever in what becomes of the land once their rightful owners reclaim their interests. Syria, Iran and Jordan can put every tank they own on the border for all I care.

Your doomsday scenario ain't gonna happen. Nobody is going to overrun Israel, period. The Soviet Union does not exist anymore to provide a nuclear backup for Middle East adventurism.

I'd be interested in seeing your analysis of JeffC's two-state scenario above, if you can come up with one.

PTC Observer
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Bacon - Confidence

"Nobody is going to overrun Israel, period."

Why do you make such a confident statement?

Israel population: 7,473,052 in 2010
Arab countries surrounding Israel including Saudi = Approx 300 million, many of these countries have vowed to destroy Israel as their national policy.

Israel at its smallest width (pre-1967) two miles

Why exactly do you think nobody is going to overrun Israel? They have attempted to do so in the past. Who will stop millions of people from pouring into Israel (with or without tanks). The USA? Europe? Russia? I think not. Oh, there will be a whole lot of talk and mashing of teeth, but no one will jump into this fight, no one.

As for an analysis of a two state scenario, it's this. There won't be two states, there will be only one. It won't include Israel, the world is changing, the power interests in the USA are shifting in favor of a Palestinian state, led by people like Mr. Carter and Mr. Obama. The Jews are in for a very hard time and we will sit back as a country and be proud of the fact that we have "done the right thing" when the poor Palestinians get their lands back (all of it).

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East that works, it has a modern society that is free, no matter, it will be consumed by backward people who want to turn back the clock to the 13th Century and the US will help them do it. It's just a matter of time as the US loses power in the world. The people of Israel better start looking for a place to flee they will need one. It's part of the new final solution but this time they won't go quitely into the night. Not this time. IMHO.

Chris P. Bacon
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Simply put, Petey C
PTC Observer wrote:

"Nobody is going to overrun Israel, period."

Why do you make such a confident statement?

Simple: Israel has nuclear weapons.

JeffC
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So you are Likud OOU

I suppose you support a one-state solution?

Chris P. Bacon
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funny thing about that JeffC

Observerofu is arguably the most anti-Semitic poster on this board. He has reams of criticisms about George Soros and those filthy Jewish banking cabals.

But since Bebe and the Likkuds hate Obama with a passion, Observerofu is more than happy to talk out of the other side of his mouth about how America needs to love, honor and obey Israel.

AtHomeGym
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OOfU & Soros

Haven't seen him denigrate Soros as a Jew and don't know why he would--while Soros was born a Jew in Hungary, he has publicaly admitted to being a non-believer in religion. Now IMHO Soros does deserve denigration for various other reasons. And I don't know who would be sad if he made his way back to Hungary.

Observerofu
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Care to back up those statements bacon?

or are you just slinging some more mud? Remember you said Iran is not a terrorist state even though they have vowed to destroy Israel?

Chris P. Bacon
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oofu and Jew baitin'

Puff that chest out mightily, oofu. We both know Cal deleted the thread where you went into your Jew-baiting rant against Galtant. Out of sight, out of mind....no evidence trail.

But then, I seem to recall you resented being called a race-baiter too "I have many colored friends!"

Observerofu
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So just slinging mud thought so

Ok just so we all know what you did.

Chris P. Bacon wrote:

Puff that chest out mightily, oofu. We both know Cal deleted the thread where you went into your Jew-baiting rant against Galtant. Out of sight, out of mind....no evidence trail,

Danged I get tired of correcting your ah..hem.. faulty memories.

http://www.thecitizen.com/node/5481

Post 60-69

Seems like you are incorrect again. How many is that now?

Cyclist
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I'm sure AIPAC will....

take issue with President Obama.

Locke
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Obama is toast

Obama's done. The US is the only country in the world where you have to pledge allegiance to a foreign country to get elected. Netanyahu will simply instruct Congress as to how they are required to vote. Obama can be a Marxist/socialist/Alinskyite Muslim from Kenya and get elected but telling Israel to stop stealing land from the Palestinians is way over the line. He is out in 2012.

PTC Observer
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Locke - Obama

Nope, won't happen. There's no one that can beat him unless they can raise a lot more money......let's say $2 billion to buy the Presidency.

Remember, those bucks will get out a lot of special interests to vote, buses, trolling, community organizers, etc.

Davids mom
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Diplomacy

We are witnessing a disagreement among 'grown ups'. Hamas is the fly in the ointment . 'My way or the highway' does not work. Two leaders are 'working together' for peace. What an unusual idea.

Cyclist
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Ah yes diplomacy...

I'm curious to see how AIPAC reacts to this.

JeffC
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Diplomacy and AIPAC

I suspect that AIPAC will be more muted than people expect. Netanyahu can't really afford to go into an all out confrontation with Obama and certainly not over this. It's the same position as Bush's and Clinton's and nothing new. Almost everyone who supports a two state solution knows that the 1967 borders are the starting point. It's been in all the agreements that have been proposed so far and is widely supported in Israel with the appropriate caveats which Obama included. He didn't say return to the 1967 borders, he said: "The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states." The "mutually agreed swaps" is code for allowing Israel keep most of the settlements.

AIPAC won't react until after Obama and Netanyahu both speak at their convention on Sunday, Obama first. He will most certainly emphasize the "mutually agreed swaps" phrase making the 1967 borders flexible.

Also, although the vast right-wing conspiracy is beating Obama for something he didn't say (don't feel sorry for him, he can take care of himself), there was a lot to like in the speech. The ADL seemed to like it, particularly the part when Obama said, "In particular, the recent announcement of an agreement between Fatah and Hamas raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel – how can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist. In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question."

Yes, indeed.

The speech has also been favorably received by European governments who are tired of Likud's failure to negotiate for 20 years. They basically want Israel to settle the problem to undercut fanatics rallying other fanatics about Palestine and to undercut Iran's influence in the region. Iran is on Likud's side. The 21 Arab nations, led by Saudi Arabia, are for the two-state solution.

Netanyahu and Likud's real beef is that they do not support a two state solution. That's why Israel refuses to draw a boundary map. The boundary they want is with Jordan after they confiscate the West Bank. Obama has now endorsed a two-state solution with a boundary semi-defined. Netanyahu will never accept that.

Hovering in the background is the petition in the UN to recognize Palestine as a state. The vote is scheduled for September and 142 states have endorsed it, 100 being needed to pass. Since it is a General Assembly vote, the US cannot veto it in the Security Council. This will cause Israel untold woe as Palestine sues them repeatedly in international courts over each and every settlement; plus a host of other ramifications.

I suspect that this is why Obama moved now. He's getting hit politically in the US but it's not going to matter in 2012; not compared to the upcoming September storm. He's telling Bebe that he's not going to have his one-state solution and positioning the US as a broker in negotiations that, if restarted between Israel and the Pals, might delay the UN vote. IMO, this would be a good thing.

It's getting interesting.

Cyclist
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JeffC,

Thanks for the analysis. I was thinking that AIPAC might attempt to undermine the administration much like they tried to do with Bush 41 and S of S James Baker.

JeffC
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Cyclist

I'm thinking AIPAC and Netanyahu will be calling for regime change.

Davids mom
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AIPAC CONFERENCE
Quote:

I suspect that AIPAC will be more muted than people expect.

I think Obama is walking into the lions den when he speaks at the conference. It will indeed be interesting.

Cyclist
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It's September JeffC,

and that vote is near. I suspect that US Mideast policy could take on a different flair if the vote outcome is not favorable to Israel.

JeffC
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Next Week Cyclist

It looks like Abbas is going to request a General Assembly vote to have Palestine upgraded from "observer mission" to "non-member observer state", like the Vatican and the EU. Obama would veto member state status, which would have to be approved by the Security Council.

The US and Israel have been furiously lobbying against the bid but it is going to pass overwhelmingly. Israel wants to continue negotiating for another 20 years while they continue to build illegal settlements but Abbas has given up on any deal actually happening. Netanyahu's government is frantic because if Palestine gets their new status, the Pals will have standing to bring lawsuits in the International Court of Justice against Israel over the settlements.

After the U.N. Vote on Palestine

Robert W. Morgan
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There was only one "grown-up" in that meeting, Moms

and it wasn't Prezbo. I really wonder who is pulling his strings. He has no experience or basis for saying the things he does which means someone is telling him what to say. I don't mean speechwriters, I'm talking about a true puppetmaster. And again, who cares about the Palestinians and why now? Is he just trying to clean things up before the world ends tonite?

And right again, "my way or the highway" does not work. Doesn't matter whether Hamas or the President is saying it.

Davids mom
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RWM

Pulling his strings? He has assembled a qualified Cabinet to advise him - and they have an awesome job after the reality of the mess we were left in 2008. If certain segments of our society and leadership had concentrated more on restoring our country than in making sure Obama was a one-term president - we might have been on the road to recovery sooner. Mitch McConnell (sp) made his goal quite clear at the beginning of Obama's presidency - and it looks like his efforts failed. Both leaders (Israel/US) spoke their reality with dignity and civility - leaving the door open for further dialogue. Obama made it clear - that the US will continue to support the need for security for Israel in the Middle East. IMO, the US has to stop dancing around the ’67 accord. It is a starting point for discussion – and Obama’s statement of the need to ‘swap’ areas did not close discussion. Hamas is the problem – and rightly so. Israel has a right to exist – as do the Palestinian’s. 48 ‘states’ exist side by side in the continental US – 2 states will have to exist side by side in the Middle East. There is a move for representative government in the Middle East – and the US pronouncement of support for peaceful ‘change’ in the surrounding countries that border Israel is important. The statements have been made; discussions continue; let’s watch two grown-ups who have valid areas of disagreement work together with civility and diplomacy. Non-violence has worked in the past. The birds are singing, there is a feeling of peace this morning. I hope all have a beautiful day!

Observerofu
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Dmom you mean that Cabinet that he has not met with?

"Obama Has Never Met Privately with a Half Dozen of His Cabinet Members"

"To call Barack Obama 'hands off" is to redefine the term. Do others find it shocking that according to John Heilemann, national political columnist for New York Magazine,Barack Obama has not met with some of his cabinet members privately in the first two years of the administration thus far.

MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell seemed exasperated in her reciting "there were a half a dozen cabinet members who'd not heard from the president personally; had not gotten a phone call from the president or had an opportunity to be one on one with him in the first two years."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/7790022/obama_has_never_met_pri...

So if his "qualified" Cabinet members is not giving him advise who is?

PTC Observer
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OOU - Cabinet

Mr. Obama don't need no stink'in Cabinet, he knows what he wants to do.

Cabinets are for wimps, he's the President man...he knows what he's doing.

He killed OSB with his bare hands, oh wait maybe it was those Seals.

Anyway stay out of the Prez face or you will be in big trouble, he's watching you.

Right DM?

Observerofu
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PTCO I know....I know.

Dmom just wears those Rose colored glasses a bit to often.

Her first statement caught me as funny since MSNBC even was shocked to find out Big O has not met with his own Cabinet.

But Dmom lives in her fantasy World along with Bacon. It's just not a World I care to participate in.

Davids mom
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Oou

What? The Cabinet issue is your only comeback? Interesting. With email, smart phones, etc., the statement 'personally' or 'privately' doesn't really mean much in today's techy world.

Cyclist
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IMO, Palestine as a state...

well never come to be. It doesn't matter if the pseudo Palestinian government accepts the existence of Israel or not. The Palestinians occupy land that Israel wants and will ultimately get.

Observerofu
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There was never a "Palestine" nation or state at any time

in history.

An interesting read. When REAL history is taught things are a bit clearer.

http://www.jtf.org/israel/israel.there.is.no.palestine.conclusion.htm

"When the Arab Muslim Nazis and their self-hating Jewish collaborators claim that there was a "Palestine," we should respond with the following:

More Arab Muslim lies - In June 2004, the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat, whose religion of Islam commands him to forcibly convert or exterminate all non-Muslims, lit an Olympic flame at Ramallah in the name of "world peace." (Arafat ordered the massacre of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics in Munich.)

Name one leader of this mythical "Palestine" - who was its president, prime minister or king?
Name one nation that had diplomatic relations with "Palestine."
What was the currency of "Palestine"?
In fact, the Arabs themselves always denied that "Palestine" or "Palestinians" exist."
"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not," Dr. Philip Hitti, an Arab historian representing the Muslim world, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in 1946."

But why let such a small thing like the facts interfere with the story now being written.

roundabout
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PALESTINE TERRITORY

.....was created maybe 7000 years ago and in 1948.
In the meantime every dynasty in the world has invaded and ruled over it.
Even the Iranians (Persians) and British (To name just a couple.)

The Jews even once!

No body wants these people for some reason is the only reason the remain seperate. Jordon really ought to take them in but the royalty would have to leave for a Caliph! Do we need that King anyway an his two queens?
He throws out a few gold pieces every once in a while when the natives get restless!

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roundabout

Why should Jordan take them in? During the events of "Black September", King Hussein moved to quash the militancy of Palestinian organizations and restore his monarchy's rule over the country. Gee, if only Pakistan did the same thing.

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King Hussein..

You do know the history (& that the House of Hussein) they are not really from Jordan? More like they have some claim to part of King Saud's kingdom. The problem w/ a whole bunch'a the problems in the world go back 100 a years to a back room in Paris. Uncle Ho wasn't a commie pinko. Yugo didn't need to be Slavia. Iraq is not a country. Where is that Balfour when you need to flog him?

Cyclist
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Yep bladderq a lot of the...

problems go back to those back room maneuvers and land grabbing by the remaining colonial powers meeting in Paris in 1919. I blame Britain, France and the Sykes–Picot Agreement. It has been said that the Arab delegation approached the American delegates to seek out their aid and promised oil in return. It was reported that the American response was "we have Texas". Oh well.

bladderq
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Oil in TX

As a child in the 50's, I was told the US was a self-sufficient country. I was told nuclear energy would be so cheap that the only cost would be to meter it. Ho was a NATIONALIST, not a commie pinko and was in Paris (in top hat). So 50 years later the USA gets involved in a SE Asia civil war. 70 years later the USA has to cure ethnic cleansing in amongst a bunch that never should have been joined and 80 years later we follow a false leader (Duby Bush) into nation building in the Middle East. When will we ever learn?

Cyclist
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I think David Ben-Gurion...

summed it up best...

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

PTC Observer
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David Ben-Gurion - Cyclist

was right, they will never accept the country of Israel. In fact, they will destroy it and we will stand by and let them do it.

It's the right thing to do according to many.

But Israel won't go quitely. ;-)

JeffC
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Wierd history OOU

Real history?

Here's a copy of a thousand year old Arabic map of Palestine:

Palestine

JeffC
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Really weird history OOU

Here's a copy of a thousand year old Arab map of Palestine:

Palestine

It the Bible, it was the land of the Philistines.

But as you say, "...why let such a small thing like the facts interfere with the story?"

Observerofu
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1000 year old map Jeff?

Would you explain how many times these Territory's have been changed. In Modern history there is no Palestine or Palestinian people and that my dear Jeff is fact.

JeffC
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Yes OOU a 1000 year old map

You titled your blog, "There was never a "Palestine" nation or state at any time in history." So I showed you a 1000 year old Arab map.

Then you claimed that, " In fact, the Arabs themselves always denied that "Palestine" or "Palestinians" exist." and quoted some Arab as saying, "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not,"

The statement is patently absurd. If you think can convince people that the Arabs are denying that Palestine exists and have always denied that Palestine exist, go for it.

Now you say, "In Modern history there is no Palestine or Palestinian people and that my dear Jeff is fact."

Here's a map of Palestine from 1767 in the Murray Hudson collection:

LA PALESTINE. 1767

Here's a map of Palestine from 1849 in the Reisnett collection:

Palaestina 1849

Here's a map of Palestine from 1944:

Map of Palestine 1944

Here's a copy of the Balfour Declaration from 1917:

Balfour Declaration 1917

Perhaps you have confused Palestine with Atlantis.

Observerofu
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Jeff I will ask you the same question I asked Dmom

After the 6 day war whose land was occupied. Jordon or Palestine?

There is no Palestine state Jeff and you know it. The so called Palestine people are in fact Jordanians. People that the Jordanian Government all but exiled due to their shall we say radical history.

In 1948 after Israel War for Independence, Gaza was conquered by Egypt. Jordan took Judea and Samaria, and Syria claimed the Golan.

They ruled over these territories for 20 years. But in none of these areas was a government of local Arabs allowed.

After Egypt conquered the Gaza Strip they prohibited "Palestinian" National activities and proceeded to remove it's leaders.

Jordan not only did not grant independence to Judea and Samaria, but it actually annexed these areas to its own country.

Syria occupied and annexed the area known as Hama in the Golan Heights, the Arab League prohibited and made it criminal for a provisional "Palestinian" government there.

"The first time the name was used was in 70 C. E. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.
Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland."

- Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist,
editor and CEO of WorldNetDaily

Actually Jeff they said it best IN THEIR OWN WORDS:

"Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:
"We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."

"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
- Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, to the UN Security Council"

JeffC
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Got it OOU

You're argument is utterly specious. About 99% of the people in the world know exactly who the Palestinians are and where Palestine is. However, I've heard this argument many times and whether or not there was a Palestine is really irrelevant to the real objective. It is not an actual real position, it is just a means for justifying the opinion that since there was never a Palestine, and since they were all Jordanians and Syrians, then it's okay to confiscate the land that they own and send them all to Syria and Jordan. The one-state solution.

Do I have it right?

Observerofu
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Jeff it matters not what other people think

Just because it has become an "accepted" De facto state still does not make it legally true. You see I am a literal kind of guy. I can assume that if the PLO said there was and is no Palestine then that would suffice. The "Palestinian" plight is one of their own making.

Jeff the "fact" is the actual STATE of Palestine does not exist. The "Fact" is it was and is instructive to see how many people come to their defense and completely ignore history to do so.

Jeff as far as a one state/two state issue. As long as the defense of Israel can be maintained AND Hamas is removed as the De facto Government of "Palestine" then I see no reason why a 2 state solution can be worked out. The Borders must be maintained as is.

Davids mom
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Oou and history
Quote:

Jeff the "fact" is the actual STATE of Palestine does not exist. The "Fact" is it was and is instructive to see how many people come to their defense and completely ignore history to do so.

You just failed the course. One can't pass by only reading the first and last
paragraphs of a chapter. Oou has studied the history of the region. Oou has reasoned that the Palestinians do not exist. Therefore, there is no land that can be considered Palestinian. History according to the scholar Oou. Fascinating! NOT! LOL!

Quote:

Jeff as far as a one state/two state issue. As long as the defense of Israel can be maintained AND Hamas is removed as the De facto Government of "Palestine" then I see no reason why a 2 state solution can be worked out. The Borders must be maintained as is.

Oou has the answer! Send him to Israel and he'll settle this problem once and for all! Such an easy answer!

Observerofu
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Dmom you may mock me all you want

it still does not change anything. I noticed you did not refute one single point. You just mocked it. Typical elitist liberal response.

Davids mom
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Teach a man to fish Oou

Telling you accomplishes nothing. I think you'll find the research interesting. Have an informative day!

Observerofu
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Dmom as a teacher you should have already done the

research yourself. As a Liberal you just took the party line - hook, line and sinker.

Noticed you failed to answer the new set of questions as well.

Davids mom
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Oou
Quote:

research yourself. As a Liberal you just took the party line - hook, line and sinker

As a neo conservative, and an uninformed one, you just took your own 'line' hook line and sinker.
So, you refuse to do the research - sad. A debate based in historical facts would have been interesting.

Observerofu
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Dmom see answer to Jeff

Noticed also you failed to mention that. Bet you just about anything you didn't know any of this.

Not surprising they don't teach these things in the Secondary education system you and bacon went to. Too much Sociology not enough un-revised History.

Davids mom
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Oou

Please explain how Ryan's plan will lead the US out of debt. Thanks.

Observerofu
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You answer mine and I will answer yours

Return the favor and I might as well.

Davids mom
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Gort

You're right! LOL

Gort
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D_Mom, like garlic to a

D_Mom, like garlic to a vampire!

Davids mom
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Deleted by poster

.

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Deleted by poster

.

Chris P. Bacon
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"legally true"

When you can't argue facts, fall back on jailhouse lawyering and split hairs over "legal truisms".

Just like his spiritual mentor, grubby Herman Cain, oofu's knowledge of the history and politics of the Middle East would fit comfortably on a bumper sticker. Scratch beneath the surface talking points, though, and you'll find very little substance there.

Oofu has all the intellectual heft of a popcorn fart.

Observerofu
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Well at least I don't make stuff up bacon like you

Did you ever get around to finding all those files on all those statements you made as fact?

btw- I do find it funny that on another thread you called me an anti-Semite while here you are busting my chops for defending Israel.

Strange indeed.

btw- I noticed like Dmom all you did was mock. Neither of you refuted the argument. I would think the PLO has more inner knowledge then either of you two, but what do they know. They only LIVE THERE.

Chris P. Bacon
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the only constant
Observerofu wrote:

btw- I do find it funny that on another thread you called me an anti-Semite while here you are busting my chops for defending Israel.

Strange indeed.

Nobody ever said you were consistent. The only constant in your life is your absolute hatred for the President. Israel is at loggerheads with the United States over Palestine, so of course you're supporting Israel because you feel political points can be made against President Obama. If Israel were to say something in support of President Obama, you'd turn on a dime and condemn Israel. That's what spineless "party first, country second" cowards such as yourself do.

Observerofu wrote:

btw- I noticed like Dmom all you did was mock. Neither of you refuted the argument.

I didn't see an "argument". I saw you thumpin' your little pink chest and spewing all sorts of cut-n-paste not germane to the original topic. The usual drivel from you, in other words. So, until you learn to foment a coherent argument, I'm more than happy to mock you and your popcorn fart "logic".

p.s. You don't "make stuff up"? Where's the link to the NY Times "anti-honor" article?

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Show where I said it bacon

and I will. You talk a fair game but your performance is sadly lacking. But I bet Ms. Bacon tells you that a lot anyway.

Still no counter argument I see.

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Great OOU

Then you agree that the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states?

Observerofu
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Jeff one other point and then done

99% of the people in the World believed the World was flat. Where they right?

roundabout
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OOU: Flat World

My guess would be that 90% of those people never had thought about whether it was flat or whatnot!
5% thought we floated on a turtle's back, and maybe 5% wondered how.

There was no media in those days to spread crap or possibilities.

As to today, we still are very ignorant of many things to come. Some don't think there will ever be two by-passes!

Davids mom
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Obama welcomed in Ireland!

Thanks to the media - we are witnessing the tremendous welcome that Obama and our first lady are receiving in Ireland. Nothing like Scot-Irish hospitality!! Obama's great, great , great grandfather was from Ireland. America, a nation of immigrants from all around the world.

JeffC
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Flat world OOU?

I'm not getting into a discussion about the Republican presidential candidates views here.

Davids mom
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Oou's history lesson

Another sample of Oou's credibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Gort
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D_Mom, if you want to chase

D_Mom, if you want to chase OofU away just ask him about the “Ryan Plan, roadmap to the debt crisis.” It’s like holding up a handful of garlic in the face of a vampire.

For some reason he is reluctant to discuss the issue.

Davids mom
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Gort

LOL! I get a kick out of those issues Oou won't address. The 'chase' is better than a chess game!

Observerofu
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Really Dmom how many times have I asked you

direct questions and you STILL won't answer any.

Talk about avoiding issues. Pot and Kettle thing again.

How about Communist in the Whitehouse? That's an issue you would like to avoid aye?

Asked for the 4th time.... Are you comfortable with this Administration having/had a self avowed COMMUNIST in the Whitehouse in any position?

Davids mom
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Oou

I've answered your questions. You just can't comprehend English. Which one of my answers did you not understand?

Observerofu
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Dmom you just did it again now for the 5th time it's a

simple yes/no:

Are you comfortable with a self-avowed Communist and Marxist supporters in the Whitehouse as part of this administration or in any supporting role?

Davids mom
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Gort's answer

I can't improve on that, except to point out that there were some other avowed communists in supportive roles in administrations in the past. A person who described himself as a communist in the 40's, may have been a registered Republican in the 70's. Some activists in the Civil Rights movements of the late 20's and early 30's embraced the communist philosophy. Communism has always embraced the weakness in democratic governments in recruiting the working class and the oppressed. As I stated before, when a Communist has been on the ballot, I, along with the majority of Americans, did not select the representative from that political party. And, unless another Reagan appears, I cringe to think of a Republican in the White House as President. FDR had a tough road to climb after Hoover - and look where we are after Bush 43. We need to look at actions of political parties. Fiscal conservatism did not describe Bush's platform. We need a Congress that has the vision to 'balance the budget' without throwing out the baby with the bath water.

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Ok dmom your're not going to answer

I didn't believe you would. I could only assume if the other party was in the Whitehouse you would.

I have the answer I already knew anyway. The fact that you are OK with this Administration bringing in a 1990's Communist not some vague "40's" Communist is telling. The fact is Radicals run the Whitehouse now.

Davids mom
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Simpletons. Oou

look for simple answers to complex problems. The problem is not solved if there is still the problem. Since the recording of history, there has been conflict between Syrians, Jordanians, and Palestinians. (take the time to research before answering)
I applaud your intellectual acumen.

Chris P. Bacon
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"Simple solutions to complex problems"

DM, you've encapsulated in five simple words what makes this site so very, very special: the preponderance of fringe right wingers here to insist that there are simple solutions to complex problems.

I honestly believed that no one over the age of 18 could possibly support (let alone adopt) Ayn Rand's fictional paen to teenage selfishness as their own personal philosophy, yet a number of folks here have done so. Their "I...Me...Mine" mindset is simultaneously amusing and disturbing.

I'm appalled that so many of them regard penury for the elderly as a perverse "virtue". They have no problem at all with Granny eating cat food.

Into this grotesque moral vacuum step people like grubby Herman Cain, demagogues who have finely honed their "us vs. them" rhetoric to a razor-sharp edge. They speak in easily digested bumper sticker sound bites, telling the masses what he thinks they want to hear, and the unwashed masses (see: oofu) take that as Gospel.

Observerofu
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Chris none of us are offering solutions only opinions

on what we think should happen. If we had the "Solution" we would be in DC getting rich with the rest of them.

You don't like most of the opinions presented here. OK that's fair. Most of us don't like yours. But that's the Freedom we enjoy here both on this site and America.

The problem exist when you, Dmom and others start deriding that opinion as frivolous and not worthy of debate then you simply move onto insults or ignoring the point being made. This is typical Liberal elitism. Only your opinions are worthy.

You however go a step or two further. You obfuscate, take out of context, or simply misquote others. You do this for your own personal gratification believing doing so actually wins the debate. You make up stats, use wacko surveys, employ hard left blogs as sources and simply just make up statements without fact all the while eviscerating any of the "Right" persuasion for doing any of the same.

It's like I have told you and Dmom both you can't win the debate by simply disagreeing with our opinions. Disagreeing does not make you right it just makes you disagreeable. Instead of arguing for or against a point of contention you devolve into insults and innuendos.

You go from topic to topic telling the same tired old Lies about us. These attacks you do for the sole purpose of attempting to discredit us without ever arguing the merits of the disagreement or the merits of our points.
Well theres that Latin Word again "ad Hominem" literally meaning: "Argument against the man" You would rather attack us then argue why we are wrong. Dmom would rather pontificate making unsubstantiated statements until backed into the corner then come out with "Can't we all get along" post asking questions but never answering.

None of us is making policy.
None of us is going to change one thing.
None of us is going to fix what is wrong in this World no matter the perception.

We or at least I use this forum as a sounding board bouncing what I have read or heard or believe to be true against the backboard of Liberal thought.

Bacon you nor I or anyone else is really doing anything more then using this as a forum for opinions. That is why when you move into the arena of insults, insulting Cancer survivors, Vietnam Vets and even 9-11 families you win no debate. In fact you lose what little relevancy you have and what little credibility with those that don't have a fixed ideology. Dmom and those of that ideology will always defend you and if that is enough for you then so be it.

Chris P. Bacon
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laughing at oofu

I obviously hit a nerve with you, oofu. This is a good thing, in my opinion.

I don't mind an honest exchange of opinions. I can and do debate the issues of the day.

Sadly, there are those out there..and I consider you to be one of them...who take it as a personal insult when someone disagrees with their fringe right looney toons dogma.

You and your bumchum Petey C have made something of a cottage industry of denigratin' and insultin' people who disagree with you. That's fine. There seems to be an expectation that us libruls need to turn the other cheek in the interests of kumbahyah and all that...and I frankly admire people like JeffC and Davids Mom who can do so. Unfortunately for you, though, I'm not like them...I have no problem joining the likes of you in the gutter should mud have to be thrown.

I've taken issue with grubby Herman Cain, pseudopatriot Terry Garlock and that opportunist who has made a career of being a professional 9/11 "victim"....and watched as you morphed that into me criticizin' ALL cancer victims, Vietnam vets and 9/11 survivors. That's a great example of the type of intellectual dishonesty from your side!

The best part about lockin' horns with you is the fact that you are not man enough to own up to your lies. You probably think you're gaining some sort of perverse respectability by loudly and continously insisting on things that have been proven to be wrong, you load up your excuses with a plethora of logical fallacies trying to obfuscate and draw attention away from the core issue of your dishonesty.

It's not working, is it?

Bottom line: You can trot out your falsehoods, half-truths and lies all you want. Just don't be surprised when people like myself, DM, JeffC, Ninja, Lion, Carbon, Nuk and many many others rub your nose in your lies.

lion
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Bacon

I agree with Bacon about 95% of the time but I do not have the patience or persistence to keep addressing the looney tunes of the far right.

I think the problem is not so much with the lies they tell but their separation from reality.

There is little reason to debate some matters they assert such that President Obama is a secret Muslim, or is a socialist or communist, or born in Kenya, or that Bill Ayers was an influence on President Obama. To argue such paranoia is like arguing with someone who asserts that the sky is not blue but is plaid.

This separation from reality would just be a laughable matter except when it intrudes into actual public policy. And is promulgated over and over by right wing talk radio and Fox News. So when the right wing denies global warming because the "elitist" scientfic community states that it is happening, or ignores "elitist" economists when they predict the consequences of not extending the public debt limit, or continue to believe tax cuts for the rich will produce jobs, or ignores the real consequences that reductions in Medicare and Medicaid would mean for the poor and elderly.

This escape from reality has led the Republican Party to sell its soul to the paranoid right wing. There is no one too extreme right wing who is not welcome in the new Republican Party. So otherwise intelligent and moderate Republicans dare not offend any of the extremists in its party.

Moderate Republicans are now back tracking and denying previous moderate postions they once held.

The new Republican Party is not fit to govern. It now exists just to be the slave of Fox News and right wing talk radio and other extreme nuts. It exists only to shout bumper sticker slogans and obstruct President Obama and the Democrats as they govern America.

I predict that this political cycle is coming to an end. Ratings for Rush, Sean, and Beck are falling. Americans are tiring of the perpetual outrage of the right.

Hopefully more sane times are coming.

In the meantime my future comments will be mostly sarcastic.

kevink
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Lion. Your analysis of the new *conservative is spot on. One ???

Who is "Beck?" Seems to be slightly familiar, but I haven't heard that name in so long, I just can't quite place him.

halfdollarandlost
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Same Old Same Old

Blah blah blah, right wing. Blah blah blah, talk radio. Blah blah blah, Glen Beck, etc, etc, etc.........

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