Obama Embraces 'Death Panel' Concept in Medicare Rule

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Joe Kawfi
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Obama Embraces 'Death Panel' Concept in Medicare Rule

During the stormy debate over his healthcare plan, President Barack Obama promised his program would not "pull the plug on grandma" and Congress dropped plans for death panels and "end of life" counseling that would encourage aged patients from partaking in costly medical procedures. Opponents of Obama's plan, including former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin, dubbed such efforts as "death panels" that would encourage euthanasia.

But on December 3rd, the Obama administration seemingly flouted the will of Congress by issuing a new Medicare regulation detailing -- "voluntary advance care planning" that is to be included during patients' annual checkups. The regulation aimed at the aged "may include advance directives to forgo aggressive life-sustaining treatment," The New York Times reported.

In Obama-land, all you have to do is change the title and then make it a presidential 'directive'. Congressional approval is not needed. So much for leading a democracy, Obama is nothing but a dictator.

Observerofu
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Ahhh the "End of Life counseling" is back

Death Panels? Well the Obama apologist here will decry the right is mad but you mix in the Medicare mess where they can deny treatments deemed too expensive or not "worth" the effort then yep it seems like the Death Panels are back.

Davids mom
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End of Life Counseling

From today's news report:

Quote:

Back when the health care bill was being debated in Congress, former vice-presidential candidate Sarah Pain said the provision to pay doctors for end-of-life discussions could lead to “death panels.”
It’s a claim that angered Dr. Gary McCarragher, who works with hospice patients in Pasco and Hernando counties.
“I think it was very damaging,” he said. “Many of our patients still think that advance care planning consultant has a death-panel effect.”
The proposal to reimburse doctors for having discussions about end-of-life care was taken out of the bill, but a similar provision has reemerged as a new administrative rule for Medicare.
It goes into effect January first, and it allows doctors to be reimbursed for discussing end-of-life issues during a patient's annual wellness visit.

The patient has the right to deny the discussion during a 'wellness' visit. No one is being forced to have this discussion - but the doctor will be reimbursed if he/she gives this service

Gort
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OofU, As far as I'm concerned

OofU, As far as I'm concerned the Republican's put this topic in the political arena. Something like "End of Life counseling" was necessary after the mess we seen the Republican's make of the Terri Schiavo case!

But what the heck are you and Joe_K so worried about? Next Wednesday John Boehner will be the new "Weeper of the House" and have everything fixed by Friday, right?

BTW, how many jobs will be created by reading the Constitution out loud? (Did FreedomWorks or Faux News give you the number on that yet?)

BTW2, did you really vote for Jimmie Carter?

Observerofu
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Gort

Funny you should bring up the Schiavo case. It was a freakin mess. Just goes to show what Government does when it involves itself into our Healthcare decisions especially end of life decisions.

Bob Fertik is a life-long progressive and Democratic Party activist he said at the time....

"I'd sure like to know who's paying for Terri Schiavo's long-term care.
70% of nursing home residents rely on Medicaid. Yesterday, even as they screamed about keeping Terri Schiavo on a feeding tube, House Republicans voted to cut Medicaid by $20 BILLION.
If Schiavo's care is being paid for by Medicaid, I suggest that the first dollar cut by a hospital should be the dollar that keeps Schiavo alive.
Perhaps Republicans - and their "base" - would finally understand what it means to cut desperately-needed federal programs.
It means sentencing thousands of chronically ill Americans to death."

I guess now it is ok to go ahead and sentence these people to death since under Obamacare Medicare is being cut drastically.

"AP
WASHINGTON — Democrats are pushing for Medicare cuts on a scale not seen in years to underwrite health care for all. Many seniors now covered under the program don't like that one bit." "When the Republicans were in power, their attempts to cut Medicare to reduce government spending ran into a wall of opposition from Democrats. Now that Democrats are in control, they're calling for hundreds of billions in Medicare cuts to help the uninsured get coverage.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32225671/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

Medicare’s Refusal of Medical Claims Continues to Outpace Private Rate

http://www.independent.org/blog/index.php?p=4459

Chris P. Bacon
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Medicare = Medicaid? NOT!
Observerofu wrote:

Funny you should bring up the Schiavo case. It was a freakin mess. Just goes to show what Government does when it involves itself into our Healthcare decisions especially end of life decisions.

Bob Fertik is a life-long progressive and Democratic Party activist he said at the time....

"I'd sure like to know who's paying for Terri Schiavo's long-term care.
70% of nursing home residents rely on Medicaid. Yesterday, even as they screamed about keeping Terri Schiavo on a feeding tube, House Republicans voted to cut Medicaid by $20 BILLION.
If Schiavo's care is being paid for by Medicaid, I suggest that the first dollar cut by a hospital should be the dollar that keeps Schiavo alive.
Perhaps Republicans - and their "base" - would finally understand what it means to cut desperately-needed federal programs.
It means sentencing thousands of chronically ill Americans to death."

I guess now it is ok to go ahead and sentence these people to death since under Obamacare Medicare is being cut drastically.

You might want to look up the difference between Medicare and Medicaid. Confusing the two separate programs makes you look ignorant. More ignorant than usual, in fact.

Observerofu
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What a little joke you are-wasn't comparing the two

but then again neither were you.

http://www.thecitizen.com/node/5259#comment-20587

See comment #12

Gort
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OofU, I didn’t see anything

OofU, I didn’t see anything funny about the Terri Schiavo case. We all know it was Republican politicians that were the principal driving force in that fiasco.

Speaking for myself, I don’t think I have the expertise to discuss the fate of the chronically ill. Most people that die in the United States are 65 and over. That puts them on Medicare. It is for that reason I believe “End of Life counseling" is a necessary service for them.

“End of Life counseling" needs to be decided between an informed patient, (when possible,) the family when necessary, and the patients doctor(s).

How we pay for these services is something that can, and should, be debated in public.

Observerofu
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Gort somewhat agree

I think that should be something decided between family and personal Doctors. I get a little queasy when the Government steps in with the offering of cash to "discuss" their "options".

It is a very slippery slope we travel on when you give incentives for a action that could and should be personal. Just how quick can that turn to paying Doctors NOT to advise their patients on alternative treatments when the money runs out?

Gort
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OofU, it gives me some

OofU, it gives me some satisfaction that you ‘somewhat agree’ but the rest of your answer leaves me scratching my hard shinny head in wonder.

The way I understand the issue is like this. If you’re qualified for Medicare and develop a chronic illness, Medicare would not reimburse your doctor for advising you on your treatment options for end-of-life care.

My question to you is, “Don’t you think the doctor should get paid for providing you that service?

AtHomeGym
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Gort & End Of Life Care

I have had the same Primary Care Doc for more than 20 yrs. We have no secrets. He knows my wife and I have made some DNR decisions. Why should the Govt be involved in any way in decisions that should be personal and private? Oh, while we are both Medicare Part A (Hospitalization), we pay for private insurance for other medical care.

Davids mom
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AHG

The government is involved in 'paying the doctor' for his/her time. You don't have to avail yourself of this counseling during a 'wellness visit' if you don't want it. Whenever one goes to the hospital, they are usually given a form to fill out and have a choice of making some decisions regarding care. Many appreciate the service of counseling during difficult times - but those giving the counseling expect and should be paid. Some policies do not cover this charge.

Joe Kawfi
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"The Government" is involved DM?

What about the working taxpayer that actually is forced to hand over money for this "voluntary" counseling. They are more involved than the government since they are having to fork over money to pay for this nonsense.

If it is such a great program, why did the Libs circumbent the legislative process by making it a "directive" and then try to keep it hush hush? (Unsuccessfully, I might add, much like most things that libs try to do.)

Davids mom
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Paying a doctor - Kawfi

for service. If a taxpayer doesn't want the service, he/she doesn't have to have it. If a taxpayer wants the service - and doesn't want the government or an insurance company to pay for it - as you seem to favor - pay for it yourself if you want the service. No one is going to serve you for free Mr. Kawfi. Geeez. At least I can claim dementia - what's your excuse?

Joe Kawfi
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DM

Unlike the moocher lib class, I don't expect anyone to serve me anything for free. I am all about personal responsibility, the bedwetting liberals who expect everything to be handed to them by "the government" (i.e. the working taxpayer)

Get this straigt, DM - the government doesn't pay for this "service", the taxpayers do whether they use it or not.

I see you avoided the tougher question - why did the Obama administration feel the need to keep this great program secret? I thought Obama was all about transparency.

Davids mom
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Obama's secret-Kawfi

If you'd broaden your reading material - very little in this country is a secret today. You've got to search beyond Fox Cable. Try looking up Health Care Bill - Counseling.

Observerofu
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Other than Foxnews

The New York Times via Columbus Dispatch
End-of-life counseling provision kept quiet
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2010/12/26/c...

Just another opinion.

Gort
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AtHomeGym, my point was the

AtHomeGym, my point was the government is not involved with the counseling now or after Jan 1st. The decisions will still be made by you with the help of your doctor.

In my example all the Presidential directive does is direct Medicare to reimburse the doctor for the service he performed.

Observerofu
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Gort what happens when Medicare refuses to pay

for expensive treatments? Will "End of Life" options really be options at all?

btw-Doctor's are already paid for consulting/counseling time.

Davids mom
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Obsereofu
Quote:

btw-Doctor's are already paid for consulting/counseling time

Does Medicaid/Medicare ‘already pay’ them' or do insurance companies all agree to pay them for this counseling during wellness visits?

Observerofu
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DM-Unknown

at least by me.

However my poi covers consultation visits including DNR. I have to assume a type of fee schedule exist for Medicare/Medicaid.

PTC Observer
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DM - Observerofu

There is a fee schedule.

Gort
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OofU, what happens if your

OofU, what happens if your private health insurance provider won’t pay for the treatment you and your doctor selected?

Observerofu
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Gort speculation and what ifs

My POI has never denied a treatment or med, BUT, could it happen sure. Then I would have to explore other treatment options up to including paying for it myself.

Gort
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OofU, I know its just

OofU, I know its just speculation but it serves the purpose of identifying what the options are to anyone that may be in a similar situation. A little farther down the page you asked me a similar question and I answered you, didn't I? Come on. Don't quit on me now!

What if you decided to pay for it yourself, exhausted all your resources, and you still want to live?

Gort
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OofU, I understand that

OofU, I understand that doctors get paid for some counseling but they would not be paid for performing this type of counseling.

If they were already being paid for this type of counseling, then why would "Johnny" Isakson have to co-sponsored legislation on the issue and why would the President have to issue a directive?

What happens if Medicare doesn't pay for a treatment? I imagine the same thing that happens now! You either pay for it yourself or, if you can't afford it, you apply for assistance through the state.

Observerofu
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Make a crisis and then propose a solution for it maybe?

Just like the uninsured dying in the streets and Gays not being able to serve in the military. Government needs a crisis to exert control. Don't have one?

INVENT IT!

Gort
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OofU, for crying out loud, we

OofU, for crying out loud, we were doing so well too! You ask me a question; I answer your question and ask you a question in return. Too bad it only lasted for a few volleys before the wheels fell off your wagon.

Observerofu
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You asked why Isakson would be for it

a progressive maybe?

Gort
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OofU, it is Gort. The clock is ticking! I am waiting!

OofU, maybe he is, you’re the best judge of that.

BTW 1, Happy New Year! I hope you have a prosperous one.

BTW 2, You never did answered the hypothetical question I asked you. We were so close to the end too. Let me refresh your memory.

You and your doctor discuss treatment options for a chronic illness. You elect a treatment that is not covered by your private healthcare provider. You decide to pay for the treatment yourself, you exhaust all your resources, the illness status is changing from chronic to terminal, the clock is ticking, and you still want to live. What are you going to do?

Chris P. Bacon
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Senator Isakson on "death panels"

Senator Johnny Isakson doesn't understand the Republican pushback on so-called "death panels"

The medicare rule pays for a one-time counseling session between a patient and a physician so that a person (not the government) has a say in final directives.

Naturally, this was twisted by Sarah Palin and her slobbering extremist followers into something completely different.

NUK_1
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Isakson totally right here

Guess he's some kind of "RINO" or what others would describe as "a person with some intellect and sometimes sound reasoning abilities" instead of a reactionary dimwit like Sarah Palin.

Maybe it's time for the "Palin Party" of airheads running around like her, O'Donnell, Angle, etc. At least it could get some TV ratings as "Desperate Politicians and Shameless Self-Promoters."

rmoc
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right is wrong

I actually believe that Medicare should pay for "end of life" planning with physicians to help patients make informed decisions about Advanced Directives and care for terminal diseases. Medicare payments have been reduced significantly and physicians especially in Family, Pediatric and Geriatric Medicine need to be rewarded for the time they spend with their patients.

Observerofu
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The Healthcare system we are headed for

"Death panels
From the London Daily Telegraph: “Hundreds of thousands of NHS patients are being denied routine procedures as dozens of trusts cut back on surgery, scans and other treatments in order to save money, a Daily Telegraph investigation has found… The situation is predicted to get worse as the NHS struggles to save £20bn over the next four years.”

From Dr. Donald Berwick, the Obama administration’s head of the Medicare/Medicaid programs: “The only thing that exceeds my admiration for the NHS is my hope for the NHS. I hope that you will never, never give up on what you have begun. I hope that you realize and reaffirm how badly you need, how badly the world needs, an example at scale of a health system that is universal, accessible, excellent, and free at the point of care – a health system that is, at its core, like the world that we wish we had: generous, hopeful, confident, joyous, and just. Happy birthday!”

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/26725

Observerofu
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Gort.. Time was indeed short

Had let my guys off between Christmas and New Years. Had to get in and get back into production. Been a little busy.

What ifs and maybes are hard to answer. Suffice it to say I do not want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Now that was the quick dirty answer. The long version of your scenario is just like I did when my wife and I got married.

We chose a cheap insurance policy. We opted out of the cancer rider. We felt it was too expensive. Of course my wife got breast cancer. We begged, borrowed and pleaded with everyone. The Hospital worked out a discount payment plan, the Docs all took cuts and allowed us to work on payments.

I took an extra job. That made THREE. We paid off the med bills 2 years later. I never took a dollar from Government. Charity (local) Church groups etc... yes, but not the Government.

I feel it is your responsibility to make your own decisions and then LIVE with them.

Looking to the Government and thru them taxpayers to pay for your poor choices is wrong.

Gort
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OofU, I thank you for sharing

OofU, I thank you for sharing another one of your personal experiences with me. I have to say, your wife is pretty lucky to be married to someone like you. I mean that sincerely.

In my book, you’re still the best “Tea-Rant-A-Sore-Ass” on “The Citizen” but don’t get all mushy on me because I paid you a compliment. I’m still going to stick a rhetorical finger in you eye every chance I get. Now that we’ve made our manners for the New Year, the truce is over, and its time to get back to the field of battle.

You are correct when you say, “.., what ifs and maybes are hard to answer,” especially when they are about one’s own mortality. All in all, the conversation was still useful. I think it demonstrated how casually we can make decisions about other people’s mortality but find it difficult to answer them for ourselves.

Unfortunately, you foiled my plans. What I was trying to do was walk you back into a hypothetical situation of being on artificial life support, complete with a “Taxpayer Dollar, Sucker Meter” mounted over the headboard. (The numbers on the meter turning faster than the meter of a gas pump when gasoline was over $4 per gallon!)

Then I was going to ask Joe_K, (your friend and fellow conservative,) if he would let you live or flip the switch and turn off the machine. Childish, I know. My only defense, …I was curious.

Speaking of curiosity, I wonder what I would do if I had that switch in my hand?

Click!

Just kidding! Have a Happy New Year! See you in the funny papers. 8 - )

NUK_1
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Gort: Please.....

...don't ever call Joe Kawfi "conservative." I know, I know....the Repubs made a lot of gains by calling all Dems "liberals"(whatever that means these days or then), but please don't stoop so low as to call a reactionary nut-job like Joe K a "conservative." I'm asking out of human kindness on this point:)

carbonunit52
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Nuk_1, out of respect for you

I for one promise to never refer to Joe K as a conservative. Call it a random act about nothing if you want.

NUK_1
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Thanks carbon!

I knew I could count on someone to a voice of reason in the wilderness:) Plus, you're a good guy anyway.

Gort
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NUK_1, how about

NUK_1, how about "Disturbative," does that work for ya?

A year or so ago I called him a "blouse wearing poodle walker" but the moderator censored me. I was so ashamed. 8 - )

tygersilver
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Love that you accuse me of taking charity

And then here you are sucking off a church for your charity! Sounds like you made a bad investment in that insurance!

Joe Kawfi
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Report: 'Death panel' provision out of Obama Medicare policy

'Death panel' provision out of Obama Medicare policy

The reversal comes a week after some conservatives accused the Obama administration of trying to sneak through a regulation after failing to gain congressional support. A provision for end-of-life planning was not included in the final healthcare overhaul after conservative firebrands labeled it as supporting government-run "death panels."

In November, the Medicare agency issued a massive regulation setting physician rates for thousands of services, including new annual wellness examinations. The New York Times first reported in late December that the wellness examinations included voluntary end-of-life counseling.

Conservatives who accused the administration of trying to govern in secrecy pointed to a letter from a House Democrat's office that was sent before the regulation was published and urged supporters not to openly celebrate the new regulation for fear that Republican leaders would "use this small provision to perpetuate the 'death panel' myth."

Joe Kawfi
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Obamacare stops building of 45 physician owned hospitals

Obamacare stops construction at 45 physician owned hospitals nationwide

This little-noticed but particularly egregious aspect of Obamacare is, by all accounts, a concession to the powerful American Hospital Association (AHA), a supporter of Obamacare, which prefers to have its member hospitals operate without competition from hospitals owned by doctors.

Gotta pay back the unions for their vote, dontcha know. Who cares if it destroys jobs and limits choice? It's all about getting Obama re-elected, right? That's what is important, after all.

AtHomeGym
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Physicians, Hospitals & Health Care

This morning, I had quite a personal chat with the MD who has been my Primary Care Physician for more than 20 years. I asked him what the new Healthcare Legislation would do in his case. He said that his greatest fear is that the GOVT is promising citizens care that available resources do not support and that eventually, it would result in complete GOVT takeover of healthcare provison. He has worked in GOVT sponsored/managed medical facilities and said it was most frustrating.He said "For me personally, I will reman optimistic that some smart folks will emerge in our GOVT, recognize the consequences of that legislation and do something to fix it. Meanwhile, I will continue to provide the best care I can under the circumstances until it begins to affect my sanity and at that point, I'll quit."

Georgia Patriot
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Single Payer

It is all designed to go to single payer(government) with government run clinics and hospitals. Pure and simple, it is ANOTHER UNCONSTITUTIONAL TAKEOVER OF PRIVATE INDUSTRY. -GP

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