It's doesn't hurt to see what others think. (Tax Cuts)

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Robert W. Morgan
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Use some logic Courthouse

Foreigners don't count at all in voting unless they are legal citizens - then all the same rules apply - 3/5 of a vote; 1 full vote; or no vote at all depending upon which economic and tax-paying group they were in.

Of course if we had the Fair Tax, all those foreigners (even the illegals) would be paying a huge amount of taxes everytime they bought something - and they couldn't get the prebate. What a deal!

If you feel a need to discriminate further than I have, maybe education or SAT scores could give you a bonus vote. A master's degree from Yale or 1500 SAT score - you get to vote twice. Remember, this is a reverse progressive tax, so logic should be used as well as awarding achievement. A reverse progressive form of taxation means it is the opposite of what we have now which rewards non-workers, welfare queens and layabouts. We need to go in the other direction with taxes - the more you earn, the less you pay.

Courthouserules
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Morgon: 3/5 worth

All I was doing was making fun of those old dudes in Philadelphia who decided some humans were worth only 3/5 of a human! Women were worth less!
However, Old Ben did like the French Women well!

Courthouserules
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Yeah, Jeff, sounds about right. also....

And the taxes that are imposed upon the bottom 80% (that furnishes so little of the overall budget) also steal bread and eggs money from poorly paid workers!

Did you know that there are about four methods of correcting cataracts in our eyes?
It depends upon your monetary and social status which method you will get.

If you have no money or insurance that covers anything, then you are given thicker free plastic glasses by welfare.

If you have some money and some insurance, you might get a laser job, providing you have a credit card. Buy your own reading glasses.

If you have a job that pays well and expensive insurance ($15,000/ year),
then you can get single vision implants with some cash involved.

If you are stinking rich with Bill Gates Insurance, then you can have "diamond" implants that allow vision at all distances, including reading.
Can't discuss the various heart choices here, to much space used.

This is not buying Mercedes' or Yachts, this is a health issue and a distinct quality of life.

Observerofu
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Jeff not surprised

at all. The Wealthy have money. I know that is a shocker but there it is.

Taxing that wealth to point of negative return is a guaranteed
motivator to have that wealth shifted outside the reach of the Governments ability to confiscate it.

California is a prime example of the over spending over compensation over reaching form of Government. Look how much wealth has left California.

The point of negative return has been reached. The problem is spending. The Government is over spending and building massive debt and deficits. Massive cuts are required.

They could confiscate 100% of the wealth in this Country and it still would not come close to paying off our debt much less continue to operate the Government.

The continued dehumanizing of the wealthy as greedy inhuman non-caring individuals is simply another attack on business and class warfare at it's finest.

Courthouserules
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OOU-Jeff

Well, they chopped off Marie Antoinette's head (the commons) for not providing bread, but cake.

They attempted to mess up Duchess Camilla's and the Crown Prince's auto, and maybe them also, for tripling school costs, and now they will have to buy a new Roll-Royce! Also more insurance on William's wife's ring!

Tea got to high in the 1700s here that we threw it in the bay! England suffered.

They (vapitalists) tried to starve out the miners in Matewan, WV, and what did they get? A great big UNION.

We better take care of our proper needy, and at the same time give incentives for some to do better (I suggest technical training and jobs).

Kick the banks in the ass and make them loan money locally that they are borrowing from the USA at 0% interest and us at 1%!
Not for houses or shopping, jobs.
I think they use their money to loan to each other and credit cards! Maybe for one company to buy another and lay-off some more people.

carbonunit52
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Wealthy victims
Quote:

The continued dehumanizing of the wealthy as greedy inhuman non-caring individuals is simply another attack on business and class warfare at it's finest.

Of course, just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you.

Chris P. Bacon
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Another day, another NotLindsey fabrication...
NotLindsey wrote:

...Look how much wealth has left California...

Yes, let's look at how much wealth has left California.

Another Urban Legend: Wealth Leaving California

Observerofu
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My Wall Street Journal Bacon trumps your propaganda

from California.

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2009/07/14/rich-and-poor-flee-california-taxes/

"California’s rich are leaving for lower-tax states. The state (slogan: “We’ll Owe You”) has among the highest tax regimes in the country, with a top marginal tax rate of 9.3% and an additional 1% tax on those earning $1 million or more a year."
"Three states with no personal income taxes—Nevada, Texas, and Washington—are among the top five destinations for the highest-income fifth of California households, according to the Institutes own data."

"In recent weeks both AAA and Toyota have announced they are closing or relocating because of the high cost of doing business in California—a loss of more than 3,000 jobs. Why? Because it is simply cheaper to do business in other states."
http://www.halfwaytoconcord.com/california-losing-good-jobs-to-other-sta...

"California is losing a battle with other states to retain and attract manufacturing jobs and the cost of doing business is largely to blame, according to a report released Tuesday by the Milken Institute.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2009/06/22/daily26.html

Nah California is not losing their wealthy at all Bacon.

You would not know a fact if it walked up and smacked you in the head.

Chris P. Bacon
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laughing at NonLindsey

oooh, a blogger at the Wall Street Journal "disproving" the article I linked to!

Did you see exactly HOW this was disproven?

Well, it seems that the wealthy are leaving California because...... because.... (wait for it) the article sez SOME people leave when taxes are high!

Talk about movin' the goalposts!

Here's an interesting quote from a link in YOUR WSJ blog:
"In fact, despite their very high taxes, the millionaire populations and the millionaire densities of Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, California and New York increased in 2010 from 2009."

Kinda says the exact opposite of what your blogger implied, doesn't it?

Thank you for the opportunity to once again show everyone your lack of intelligence!

Observerofu
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Laughing bacon also known as a pig snort

well continue there old boy to laugh it up. You use blogs often as your source but here it is simply not good enough. Thanks for showing yor hypocrisy again.

Never mind move along nothing to see here. California is doing great. In the black in all that. No deficits at all.

Well here is another one.

Soak the Rich, Lose the Rich
Americans know how to use the moving van to escape high taxes.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html

and another....

States offer asylum to fleeing businesses
http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-02-03/opinion/24657714_1_business-ta...

and another...

Voting Away the Tax Base?
Proposition 82 failed, but targeted levies have some fearing how the wealthy would react.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jun/11/business/fi-petruno11

Really Bacon only a dunce like you would argue California's wealthy love their State so much that they would allow the State to confiscate more and more of the hard earned income and not leave.

PTC Observer
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JeffC

Please read "Intellectuals and Society" by Thomas Sowell, the percentages you mention are meaningless.

Besides, what business is it of the governmment what people make? The government should be SMALL and confined to protecting Life, Liberty, and Property. Not redistributive nonsense.

The bottom of you posts should read: Robbery, Special Interests, and Power.

carbonunit52
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Thats the stuff PTCO

Throw the book at him, meaning JeffC. Thomas Sowell, intellectual, dissing on all intellectuals, except himself of course. The book sure has a lot of good reviews, more proof that to the right minded, believing is seeing.

PTC Observer
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carbon born in 52

Have you read the book?

If not check it out, it might actually improve your thinking.

carbonunit52
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PTCO

I have not read the book, and my waiting list for books to read is pretty long at the moment. It would actually have to come after my 21st reading of Huckleberry Finn.

My thinking could always use an improvement, no doubt about that, but after reading Sowell's articles on The Citizen, I have my doubts about him adding to my level of enlightenment, alas.

JeffC
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No, no, no, PTCO

I'm not complaining. I'm not wedded to the specific percentages. Rereading my post, I realized my point was not adequately emphasized so let me be clear. The cold fact is that the top 20% or so are going to essentially finance all taxes because they own almost everything. The emphasis is that the only real way to reduce taxes for those who pay them is to reduce the size of government. I believe we are in agreement.

PTC Observer
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JeffC - I am happy

that we are in agreement on this, but I doubt seriously that you are in agreement that the size of government should match its income. We don't seem to have a government that can live within its means.

Living within our means is the hallmark of a great country and a secure one too.

Regards

Courthouserules
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JeffC

Stating that "the only way to reduce taxes for those who pay them is to reduce the size of government," confuses me as to how that compares to cutting spending to balance the budget!

Are you saying that it would do both?

I see no way to reduce spending in total. Yes, there are areas where cuts can be made if it is possible for both sides to agree, but they are few.

You can see, as an example, right here in PTC where every conceivable tactic is being used to not cut spending or lay-off people.
The same is true of the USA.

There are only two answers; credit with which to operate, or growth in the economy, which provides more tax income.

Just to pay off the 14 Trillion we will soon owe will stop any spending cuts for a very long time. We may not even be able to hold at 14 Trillion!

There is another partial solution; a Great Depression where few have anything. Even then the government must spend to get out of it!

We don't really want to see our military trying to operate as does North Korea, do we? They gobble up what there is and that is not enough for them to survive in a war. The rest starve.

So, growth to produce more tax income is the answer. Growth will produce jobs.

How? Usually by war if spending can not continue, after a great inflationary period.

The real answer is "DON'T GET INTO THIS SHAPE BY NOT REGULATING, AND BY EXCUSING THIEVES, PROMPTING OTHERS TO TRY AGAIN TO BE CROOKS!

bowser
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GOP tax doubletalk

Just to clarify, if the Bush rates on income above 250k were to lapse, EVERYONE would still pay the same rate on all income up to 250k or whatever ceiling was agreed upon.

In other words, a small biz with taxable income of 350k would pay the higher, late ‘90s rate (39 vs 36%) only on 100k of that. The change in the effective, or overall, tax rates for people in the mid-six figures would be quite small.

Meanwhile, I find it interesting that, despite their insistence that no taxes should rise for anyone in this economy, GOP leaders apparently do not extend this principle to the Making Work Pay tax credits that have been in place under Obama. Those also lapse next year and unless extended, income tax bills will go up $800 a year for millions of middle class families, including mine. The White House is trying to make an extension part of the deal but if the GOP really doesn’t want any taxes going up this should not even be in play...

GAltant
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GOP = all doubletalk

Let me first say I am an independent...

The GOP has only 1 agenda and Mitch McConnell, the minority leader has made very clear....the GOP will not cooperate with the Democrats because his goal is to make sure that there is a Republican in the White House.

We need elected officials who care about those who elected them to office!
Washington and the power has corrupted all of them...both parties.

bowser
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McConnell doublespeak

Mitch McConnell was all over TV yesterday saying the issue is settled, read our lips, no taxes will go up for anybody, period, end of story.

Yet, under the current GOP position, my taxes go up about $800 next year.

That's why I quit voting republican some years back and may never again. Zero credibility.

Georgia Patriot
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Just Curious

If the current rates are extended why would your taxes go up $800, AMT? Don't judge all Repubs on McConnell, we are planning a Safari with open season on RHINO's in 2012. -GP

bowser
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Here's how, GPat

The stimulus bill included the Making Work Pay tax credits that cut 2009 & 2010 income tax bills by up to $400 for individuals and $800 for couples. They were geared to middle-income workers and delivered to them via a drop in withholding that roughly matched a corresponding credit on tax returns.

This is set to lapse at the end of this year, too. If it does, paychecks go down and tax bills go up next year for for me and everyone who’s gotten this credit.

So far, despite the GOP's rhetoric that no taxes should go up for anyone in this economy, the only call I've heard for extending these credits has come from the White House.

I’m not necessarily arguing they should be extended. I’m pointing out the rank hypocrisy of GOP leaders who are apparently perfectly willing to let the Obama credits lapse – and raise tax bills for millions of middle class workers – while insisting we must not raise taxes a dime in the top brackets.

Georgia Patriot
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Part of 2009 Stimulas

Making work pay is not part of the "Bush Tax Cuts" which are really the "Obama Tax Increase" and will expire unlees it is extended no matter what is done.http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=204447,00.html Taxes are not the problem, out of control spending is the problem. Demonizing Bush or the "Rich" does not help, it just goes to serve as a distraction from where the cancer really lies. Some small companies but many more medium/large companies will be hit with the tax increase which many feel will hurt the economy even more. Then the question becomes how much should the so called "rich" pay, is a 91 percent tax fair (it was in 1945)? 7 percent(it was in 1915)? To me the 35 percent we presently have is too high. The federal government should do what the rest of the business world is doing to get it's house in order, cut unecessary spending. http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html -GP

Davids mom
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GP
Quote:

Some small companies but many more medium/large companies will be hit with the tax increase which many feel will hurt the economy even more

A nice opinion - but reality doesn't back up your opinion,

bowser
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Not the Bush tax cuts?

Never said they were.

But a tax bill is a tax bill, and my point is this: GOP leaders have been all over the airwaves in recent weeks saying we can’t possibly afford to let taxes go up on any Americans in this economy.

Yet it turns out they are evidently willing to let taxes go up on millions of us. Just because the taxes that would go up were brought down by Obama doesn’t change that fact.

Now let's move on so we don't hold up the smart kids in class...

NUK_1
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Payroll tax decrease = New "Making Work Pay"

The GOP has been proposing the idea of reducing the employee's percent on payroll taxes to take the place of the "Make Work Play" cut so it's going to come out the same for as far as taxes go, only EVERYONE who works will get the benefit of the payroll tax deduction. Well, it works for Obama anyway because he's agreed to it, now he has to strong-arm some of the more lefty Dems who are all mad about Obama not holding the line on letting the upper bracket tax cut expire. MoveOn is in full-whine right now over Obama heading towards the center with this tax/unemployment ins renewal decision as well as the proposed US-SKorea trade agreement.

bowser
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Nuk/tax holiday

Yeah, I saw that...From the standpoint of ensuring no one's net bill rises it seems like a good outcome. Too bad it had to become a "bargaining chip" to get there.

Also interesting that the payroll tax cut lasts 1 year, everything else 2. So this time next year....

His base's tantrums aside, I actually think this is a pretty shrewd deal by Obama. If the economy and job growth continue to limp along, the GOP can hardly blame him anymore. If it perks up, he shares in the credit.

Davids mom
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AMEN!!

.

Observerofu
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and exactly who was working with whom over the last 2 yrs?

Just wondering. Seems like some one said "We Won" and shut the doors on the other party.

Now you want to work together. I get it.

Courthouserules
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MIKE

Aren't most "small" businesses LLCs?

Any profit is filed by the partners, individually.

If they pay tax as a corporation, then they can draw large salaries, which are deductible.

Now the ones that are not "most" as I said above, like GE or Wells Fargo,
They seldom make any "net" profit.

I don't know of any corporation who pays 35% tax and up!
I don't know the average, but I'll bet less than 15-20%.

This "job producing" bunch talked about will rarely hire more people due to a slightly lower tax rate.
They hire what they need only.

Good Loans by banks is what makes for more hiring, or another IT or something explosion!

This sort of talk is for politicians only for consumption by people who don't know any better, and like what they hear!

Like TEAS, for example---less government (6 less), less taxes (right), less regulation (where), and more BS!

Georgia Patriot
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Anderson 360?

We watch his show but refer to him as Anderson 180, as in 180 degrees wrong, facing the wrong direction. To the point at hand. The Obama Tax Increase would slow the economy by taking money from businesses. Lower taxes are what will get the economy moving, in the last 50 years it has been done 3 times (JFK, Reagan, Bush) all 3 times the economy responded with growth. This whole "tax the rich" thing is part of a larger plan to divide us, without what Washington calls "rich" there would be no jobs. -GP

Davids mom
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GP

What Bush are you referring to?

Davids mom
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A Reading List - GP and others

Why Reagan and Bush Tax Cuts are Unfair - Picca
The Failure of Reaganomics and A New Way Forward - Bartlett
The Redistributive Effect of Reagan's budget and tax cuts - Danziger
How GWBush Bankrupted and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy Bartlett

I've read yours - and between the two opposing views - a little light of truth shows up!

Fred Garvin
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Reading List -

- Bruce Bartlett is a history major who did his masters thesis on the Pearl Harbor attack. Along with the likes of Lawrence Kudlow, Neil Cavuto and Jerry Bowyers, he is a contemporary pop-economic hack who obtained his knowledge of economics from listening to politicians and reading bumper stickers.

- Danziger is a (drumroll please) a University professor that couldn't make it in the real world, so he decided to lecture young people about his views of a socialist eutopia. He wrote other such great works as "Uneven Tides: Rising Inequality in America.' Just another wealth redistributionist/marxist/ that preaches class warfare to the intellectually and physically lazy.

Davids mom
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Credentials of AUTHORS/LEADERS

What credentials would lend credence to Bush's economic plan?

Fred Garvin
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Bush isn't in power anymore, David's Mom

Therefore, he doesn't have an economic plan.

Is the Alzheimer's giving you problems again?

Davids mom
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GARVIN

. . then why keep referring to the Reagan economic plan, or Kennedy's, or etc. etc., not Alzheimer - just common sense.

Davids mom
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It's done

A compromise has been worked out that both sides are unhappy with - but the American people come out the winners.

Bush Tax Cuts extended for two years. Unemployment benefits for 13 months. Payroll tax lowered by 2% points for two years. Night all.

Fred Garvin
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When did I refer to Reagan's or Kennedy's plan, David's Mom?

President Obama is commander in chief. When will he begin to accept responsibility for his actions and failures?

You are right, it's not alzheimer's - It's probably the early stages of dimentia.

Davids mom
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Fred Garvin

Many here are correct, I just can't compete with your intelligence. However, a lot of average American people are happy with The President's decision to help the American people - and not necessarily the Democrat or Republican political parties.

Georgia Patriot
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Check this Out

Here is a link to the author's (Walter F. Picca) blog of the first book referenced, look closely at the picture! http://www.thetaxguardian.com/ You really think people will take this guy seriously? -GP

Observerofu
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Economics in one lesson by Henry Hazlitt, 1946

You really want to know why we have an out of control spending spree? Read it.

PTC Observer
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DM - Is this

Leslie Houts Picca?

The author of "Two-Faced Racism: Whites in the Backstage and Frontstage"?

I can't find "Why Reagan and Bush Tax Cuts are Unfair", is this a book or an article?

Please provide a link.

AtHomeGym
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PTC-O & Picca

Like you, I don't see any book by that title but I can well imagine her, as a Sociologist, writing something that from the Sociological perspective, not the economical perspective. Tough times at the University of Dayton!

PTC Observer
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DM - So......

are you recommending a reading list of things you haven't read?

Please make this simple for me, I am a simple person. Please provide me a list of books that support your philosophy. I really would like to read them, I asked the same question of Bacon yesterday but he hasn't responded.

I simply am trying to understand the "entitlement" mentality and what books other than the Communist Manifesto, etc. support this doctrine. In other words what specific writings can you point to that re-enforce your positions on democratic ideals. I have read many many books on the progressive era, none are convincing enough to me to change my positions.

I can't seem to find anything that counters the notion that individuals are better off with minimal government, individual freedom, and private property. Simply can't find where there is a good arugment for government to take my money and re-distribute it on my behalf to other people. Government provides services and those services are clearly defined in the Constitution.

Look forward to your list.

Davids mom
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I SUBMTTED A READING LIST

2.
Product Details
Why the Reagan and Bush tax-cuts are unfair by Walter F. Picca (Paperback - Oct 19, 2005)

PTC Observer
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DM - I must have missed it

are your referring to the list that started this string?

If so, you can't expect me to believe these contemporary books to be the basis of your philosophical positions, surely you must have something fundamental that makes you believe what you believe.

I just read excerpts from the Picca book, again this fellow seems to blame the tax cuts for driving up the national debt. Problem is that it was published in 2005, way before our current President's spending spree. To get really basic on this, there is a revenue side and there is a spending side. No one in either party is serious about spending cuts, until this happens no American in their right mind is going be very happy about raising taxes.

Let's start cutting and cutting big time, then we can talk about raising taxes.

If I missed you real reading list please post it again as a reply, love to know where you get your ideas. Bacon looking for your list as well!

Davids mom
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PTC Observer
Quote:

Problem is that it was published in 2005, way before our current President's spending spree

CORRECT! It was during the ex-presidents spending spree. Right?

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DM - You're

correct! Before that.

Davids mom
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Bacon and PTC OBSERVER
Quote:

A Reading List - GP and others

Why Reagan and Bush Tax Cuts are Unfair - Picca
The Failure of Reaganomics and A New Way Forward - Bartlett
The Redistributive Effect of Reagan's budget and tax cuts - Danziger
How GWBush Bankrupted and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy Bartlett

I've read yours - and between the two opposing views - a little light of truth shows up

Georgia Patriot
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Walter Picca
Davids mom
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GP - Business

See my response to Mike King.

Georgia Patriot
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Why Raise Taxes?

I will read your linked sources, here is another one from me http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2003/08/the-historical-lessons-... Bottom line is spending is out of control. Stop spending first! One other thing is some forget, most pension funds are invested in businesses, raising taxes will hurt those also. -GP

Davids mom
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GP

Did you read this - and understand it? Our 'rich' have already invested in foreign countries, etc. It is difficult to compare what is happening now to the 20's and 30's. In those days - war added to our economy. . . not so today.

Georgia Patriot
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So where would you invest Pension Funds

in the soup kitchen? Maybe hardware stores because if this economy keeps up there will be a big demand for rope and stools! -GP

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GP: Lower taxes help economy?

Were you asleep 8 years since W. Bush lowered the taxes substantially (the ones they are arguing about now to drop for over one million earnings).

If I am not seriously mistaken that caused our debt to increase four trillion and our economy go straight to hell and unemployment triple!!!!

What are you talking about? Jobs is the problem.

Georgia Patriot
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The Economy Grew!

It is just that SPENDING GREW FASTER! Tax cuts did not cause this mess, SPENDING DID!! Read this: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/01/ten-myths-about-the-bus... -GP

Georgia Patriot
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More Spending
Courthouserules
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GP

Yeah, there was those two wars at a couple of Trillion, those gifts to corporations and multi-millionaires, and "heckofajob Brownie."

Georgia Patriot
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We agree

(not really) but now what do we do, continue spending? We need to be looking at both sides of the equation. For America to survive everthing needs to be on the table. -GP

Davids mom
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PSEUDO INTELLECTUALISM - GP

and refusal to even investigate another idea - is dangerous. I do agree with this - everything must be on the table. One wonderful thing about an outstanding education is that one is exposed to all different theories - and can look at history to see what works and what doesn't and why. Try it! The stop spending rhetoric is very simplistic.

Georgia Patriot
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Simplistic

but true! You have an Outstanding education? Good for you. Do you want to know what degrees I hold? Are you a wise latina woman? If so then you surely must make better judgements than I do. I actually checked out 3 of the books you recommended, pretty far left views along with more "it's Bush's fault", talk about old/tired,... get over Bush already. As far as an outstanding education, that could be what the problem is, our universities are infested with socialists that could not compete in the private sector, so they teach/indoctrinate. So when I say STOP SPENDING you say there are no simple answers, I say there are. Did you ever run across this quote in your "outstanding education that exposed you to all different theories"? "For many years now, you and I have been shushed like children and told there are no simple answers to the complex problems which are beyond our comprehension. Well, the truth is, there are simple answers, they just are not easy ones." -GP

Davids mom
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GP - simple

Nice try. I am hardly a Latina. But then you know how to do extensive research. An educated person reads as much as is available in order to get an understanding of the situation/problem. All a 'degree' indicates to an individual that has earned one is that there is so much more to learn. Learning is a lifelong activity - and 'degrees' has nothing to do with ones knowledge. (It does help in getting a job or promotion however). To only 'read' what validates your position is foolish. The Congress came to a 'deal'. In order to get the 'middle class' help - the Republicans received tax-cut extension for the wealthy. Let's see how that plays out in 2012. . . and the deficit goes on.

Georgia Patriot
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You Are Right

There is a lifetime of learning. From the time of a High School civics class I have been an avid reader. I read "Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto". Newspapers, periodicals, all were interesting to me. When I first went into business I was in my mid twenties, my reading changed to business related publications, why some prospered and some failed. I returned to college for accounting and began to study tax code. I can remember being up late at night reading entire JK Lassers tax guides, I read the entire TRA 1986. I devoured hundreds of books, great books like "The Wealth of Nations", "The Practice of Management" by Peter Drucker, Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich", Ayn Rand's "Atlas Srugged" and "Fountainhead" anything written by CS Lewis, Dale Carnegie, Milton Friedman. You see we come from different worlds. I have employeed hundreds over the last 35 years, many leaving to start their own businesses. What we are now witnessing is the destruction of America, the creation of a "Nanny State" of entitlements from which there is no return. So you can call me foolish but I stll believe in The Greatness of America. -GP

Davids mom
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Two Different Worlds GP?

because of what we have or have not read? Really? Congratulations on your supervisory experience. Maybe someday you will be capable of managing more than 'hundreds' of personnel. We are not witnessing the destruction of America - we are witnessing America in a financial and social crisis - and America will survive. Some may think because there has been a change in the hue of administration - the country is going to the dogs. In reality, the country is in the same corporate (corrupt) hands that have been in control for some time. This group of corporate heads has successfully outsourced our 'industries', and creatively avoided our tax structure. The American worker has felt the brunt of this - and should not be considered a moocher because of the current financial situation. . . but then I waste my time - talking to one small cog in a wheel that is going nowhere. No one knows it all about anything. Once you learn that - you will be considered educated by some.

Georgia Patriot
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Not because of what we have read

But because of what we have lived. I assume you are some type of educator, correct? The world of academia is far from the real world of business, my world. In reality, being considered "educated" by you would be an insult. Thank you for considering me a "pseudo-intelectual" and a "small cog in a wheel". Why are you also injecting racism into our conversation "the hue of the current administration"? What I believe is a man should be judged on the content of his character and not the color of his skin, do you believe this? If you do then it is time you should stop playing the race card. I firmly believe there are those in power that want to create through entitlements a PERMANENT underclass of lesser citizens. I am fighting against them. You should join me. -GP

Davids mom
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GP - The American People

This may come as a surprise to you - but there are those who are active in the academic world and the business world. Multi-tasking has been going on for some time now. Thanks for picking up on the 'hue' comment. . . and then repeating MLK's famous line. Very original. The RACE card is on the table - and only an absolute fool would deny this. The people that I see trying to create a permanent underclass are those who would hold millions of Americans hostage so that they could get tax-cuts for the wealthy and ADD to the deficit. I was exposed to your philosophy in the 50's. It was bull-crappy then for women and minorities - and it's bull-crappy now. Intelligent persons do not necessarily have all of the answers to societies problems - but they do try to get as much information as possible before advising on action that may be detrimental. You seem bent on 'my way or the highway' mentality. We had 8 years of that - and our present President got shellacked because his agenda was viewed that way. Now we have over 50% of the American people who believe that tax-cuts for the wealthy should be stopped - and Republicans doggedly said they would see millions of Americans go without food on the table if they didn't get their way. The American people aren't with the Republicans on this one. Go figure. (I thought Obama was ‘gracious’ in stating that both sides lost something in this compromise deal – thank heavens he thinks more about the American people than a political party gain!)

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Georgia Patriot

GP - You are trying arguing with a person that thinks allowing people to keep money that they earned through hard work causes deficits when every person with a molecule of gray matter knows that out of control spending by politicians cause deficits.

The rich aren't spending taxpayer dollars - the politicians in Washington are. They are the ones that caused the deficits.

It's a shame that the Republicans caved on unemployment. It's turned into nothing but another welfare program that liberals can use to buy votes from the lazy.

Georgia Patriot
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I Want My Gov-ment Cheese!

Thanks for the wake up cup of Kawfi Joe, I don't know what got into me. -GP

Davids mom
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Tax Cuts

for the rich at this time add to the deficit. 98% of our citizens who earn less than $250,000 need the tax cuts exteneded.

Fred Garvin
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Extending the Unemployment Benefits

raise the deficits as well. Extending these benefits is breeding another moocher class that will continue to expect them year after year. It's just another welfare program implemented by the Democrat party to keep the underclass dependent on government.

Courthouserules
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Garvin

I will give you 2-3 million "moochers" are probably included in the unemployed numbers, maybe a few more.

But where would you like the other 12,000,000 to work?

If I understand your correctly, you are against any form of temporary unemployment payments anytime to anyone!
They just today agreed on 13 more months for many. That will amount to about $300 per week for them or $15,000 for a year. Nothing left for recession spending there after food and shelter.

hutch866
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Well Fred

What are these people supposed to do when the benefits run out and they still haven't found a job, will it help for them to be put out on the street?

Courthouserules
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Hutch & others

You need not worry about the tax cut for the wealthy or the unemployment payments.

If they don't pass them in the next few days, they will be passed when the new congress convenes in January.

This selfish, cheap crap going on now is simply about who gets credit for passing it all!

If it is done now the Democrats and the President will get credit.
If it passes in January, the new congress will get credit.

It is also getting very old and tiresome to hear all of them fussing about cutting spending, all the while voting more and more in----all of them.

They make a survey before a vote and if a bill is going to pass they will decide who is going to vote for it and who against, depending upon who can AFFORD, voter-wise to vote against it!!!!

Know how to spell this word: HYPOCRITES?

Such weak and fakey groups as the TEAS and Libertarians would do absolutely no better if they were elected! They would want re-elected!!

Davids mom
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Fred

The 'spending' under the Bush administration has put millions of Americans on UNEMPLOYMENT! If the conservative fiscal policy had been implemented under Bush - we just may not be in this situation. No amount of 'spin' will change this fact. Continued spending 'shellacked' Obama. Maybe now, our leaders will work together to help the American people and not their respective political parties. Our loyalty should be to the American people - not a political party.

Georgia Patriot
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"Moocher Class"

Reminds me of Wesley Mooch from Atlas Shrugged. This guy didn't see the financial crisis coming, and has no credibilit­y in helping us out of our current predicamen­t. His suggestion­s amount to more stimulus, which is a proven failure - it sucks money away from the productive part of the economy to "invest" it on one boondoggle after another.
-GP

lion
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GP and jobs

Businesses and high income Americans have had lower tax rates for years and since 2008 all they have done is cut jobs and send Americans to the unemployment line. While corporations have made record profits.

And now you want more low taxes for the rich? To do what--create more unemployed and make the rich richer?

Conservatives always cry crocidle tears for businesses and the rich but have no sympaphy for the middle class and unemployed.

PTC Observer
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Lion - I have

I have been asking several liberals on this forum to provide a list of any books that they would recommend that I read that supports the liberal philosophy.

I have already read Mein Kauf and das Kapital but I was wondering do you have a list of books that have shaped your thinking? If so, I would appreicate getting a list of these.

I am dead serious on this, I really would like to know what material you have read to shape your thinking against individual freedom in favor of the state.

This is no joke and I am not trying to "trap" you, I simply would like to know. You too Bacon and DM, any help here would be appreciated.

Davids mom
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PTC Observer

Pretending you don't see the list is shallow. Good night.

PTC Observer
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OK - DM

I am shallow, but I can't believe the list you just provided is your list.

Davids mom
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The List

Not MY list - a list of books that offer a different view/perspective to your beliefs. I have read many of yours - and yes, you are shallow and transparent regarding this issue. Don't be afraid to be exposed to different ideas. . .you are intelligent - and you will not be swayed - just enlightened.

Georgia Patriot
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The List

you gave is pathetic. If that is the depth of your understanding and reading those referenced books has "enlightened" you, you have my sympathy. -GP

Ninja Guy
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GP and the List

GP, I have read all the mises.org books and more. I read boxes and boxes of them over the years. Then, I realized none of that stuff is ever going to happen. I guess you could say I saw the light, but not in the 'Libertarian way'. Chucked them all in the books for charity box and got on with the real world. You ever venture down to Auburn to visit Lew Rockwell? I bet its a real hoot down there, all those freedom lovers loving their freedom all in one spot. I do have respect for David Friedman (Milton's son), who took his views to the extreme. You ever read his stuff? It's not as dry as the Austrians and has some grounding in ancient systems in Iceland. Could work if anyone ever blasts us back to the stone age. Think seriously about that trip to Disney World. It's a fine time of year to visit.

PTC Observer
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Ninja - Since

Since you have rejected the concept of individual liberty, you must have done so based on other logical writings. If individual liberty is as impractical as you say, could you explain what is the alternative to this? What exactly caused you to "see the light"?

What about Von Mises do you object to the most?

Could you provide a list of books you believe are relevant to your philosophy and give an example of a philosophy that is close to your belief system?

This is all in an effort to understand your thinking.

Thanks

Ninja Guy
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PTC O, I Believe In

Reality. Constantly trying to align other views to your own is a long row to hoe, and when you get to the end of your life, I think you might come to see that your tireless efforts to spread the libertarian philosophy could have been put to better use. I know you see yourself as a champion of the cause in the view of John Gault, but that was fiction, and I hope you don't wake up one day to realize that your life has been just that.

GP, as for books to read, sorry I can't help you there. At this point in my life, my views are shaped by too many books and life experiences to recommend just a few. For example, I have lived in nations with socialist medical systems, one in Europe and one in Asia, where my wife birthed a few kids. The care was about as good or sometimes better than what I get here, and more people had access to it. And, it was cheaper. Do I want the Federal government to take over the whole healthcare system. No, not really, but if it were to happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

So, life is more than what you can find in books. Get out and live a little. Travel, meet people, learn to live, give, and love those that are different from you. The end is NOT near...

PTC Observer
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Ninja - So.....

Let me get this right, you can't point to one or two books that you believe had a profound impact on what you believe?

As to my depth of understanding of cultures and philosophies that reside outside our country, I can assure I am no novice. I am in my mid-60's and have extensively traveled in countries other than this one. These include socialist countries. I continue to do this despite my "advanced years". Your belief that the socialist system is "as good or sometimes better than what I have here", is contrary to my experience. I have extensive experience in health care outside the US and continue in this role. Based on my experience you are flat wrong.

The fact that you refuse or can't point to a single book or a list of books that convince others of the "rightness" of your philosophy says both a lot about you and your philosophy.

You have no idea what I have experienced in my life, just as I have no idea of your experiences, but you should be able to defend your position though logic, rational argument, and your own abilities. You and people like you in my view are slowly destroying our country through your entitlement and class warfare philosophy.

You, CPB, Lion, and others like you can't seem to do much to convince anyone of the "rightness" of your cause. But most are great at juvenile name calling. You guys are the ones that are "idealists" but idealistic without any moral basis. In my view millions of people are starving, dying, and are political prisoners because of people just like you and your brethren but you would deny it. You guys have no clue that there is no "social justice" without individual freedom.

I have to go to bed now; I am in one of those socialist countries.

Ninja Guy
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PTC O Get a Mind of Your Own

PTC O, get a mind of you own. None of this stuff you write has any originality in it. It's all from mises.org and 91.7 FM. I read it all more than 15 years ago. Also, I never said the socialist system was better than what we have here. I said the medical care I received under socialist systems was as good or better than what I received here. I don't know of any socialist systems that provide a standard of living better than what we have here, aside from perhaps Denmark, if you want to consider them socialist. As for going to visit other nations, just traveling there doesn't cut it. Try living there and working there, outside of the compound walls, to get a true view into other's live and minds. BTW, do you send back your social security checks unopened?

PTC Observer
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Ninja - Nice try

So, you can't name one book, or maybe you can but you lack courage to name it?

I guess your "reality" is shaped by your emotion. You are, I assume, like most socialists you simply burn the books that counter your beliefs.

Your baseless "arguments" are only dwarfed by your intellectual dishonesty.

I think you should go back and live your life in your socialist country and stop advocating that we turn our country into your utopian dream.

Ninja Guy
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PTC O Stop Dragging Down America!

My view is that the US government is operating pretty much as it was designed. Books like would not sell well, so I doubt there are any out there to recommend. Perhaps I should write one. I will dedicate it to you.

Last time I looked, we still had checks and balances among the three branches of government. Do they get everything right. In the short term no, but in the longer term, yes.

We got through the War of 1812, the Civil War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, Vietnam, and a whole host of other very rough spots. Why do you think Obamacare is going to ruin us? Oh ye of little faith.

So, my question is why do you insist on dragging down our great nation? Nearly every post from you is how this strong country is going to hell in a hand basket. Look around, wake up and smell the roses--despite the worst recession since the great depression, things are still pretty good.

God bless America! My it be protected from people like PTC O.

PTC Observer
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Ninja - Not just one?

I can see we aren't getting anywhere with you Bacon, Lion, etc. There must be a reason for this; I will let those that read these boards figure out why.

We do indeed have a great country, it at one time was even greater but self absorbed people with entitlement mentalities have pulled it down. What we see in England, France, and Greece will also make its way to our shores when the economic reality of national bankruptcy of a socialist system comes home to roost in American.

Then we will have the same, as you say, reality confront the American people as we have seen in every socialist state. When the socialists take to the streets and demand that government cuts threaten their “standard of living”, then will be the future crisis that you ignore. What comes out of the civil unrest is anyone's guess.

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