Say a Prayer the War is Over

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bladderq
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Aug 31, 2010 marks the end of the Bush Iraq War. Mission is Not Accomplished & given the Balkan nature of the country was never destined to happen. I guess the Bush family honor (Daddy Bush not finishing the 1st war) is restored. I guess we ridded the world of non-exist. WMD. I guess we ridded the world of a tyrant that was hemmed in by sanctions/ No-Fly. 1/3rd of the country in North (Kurds) was doing well & 1/3rd in South (Shi') was OK. The attempted assination of Daddy Bush in Kuwait was avenged. A "little" money was made for "I had Something Better to Do than GO to 'Nam" Cheney & Hallibuton / KBR. I guess it was worth sending 130,000 troops into harms way w/ No xit strategy, while losing sight of the real enemy in Affie & sending in token forces for several years. Sorry for all that have had to Endure: Enduring Freedom. ONE mess of many the O-man can check off the To Do List.

Git Real
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Ummmmm.....

Which Big 10 school did you say you gradumated from?

By chance... is your father's name Dollar?

Observerofu
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Rapes-Death Squads and State sponsored Terrorism

was not worth committing our troops to.
Nope getting rid of a bloody dictator and giving a people a chance at Freedom is never worth committing troops to.
Just what is in your world?

bladderq
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Glad the War..

Glad it worked out for you. The world I would like to live in is 1 that doesn't send 4500 fellow citizens to their death + all the collateral damage for another exercise in US arrogance. Ever wonder why there was not a Great Coalition as found under Daddy Bush's War. Because everyone else knew it didn't make any "cents"! Not sure what you mean by "Freedom"? I hope it's not bring democracy to a place that has no concept (yet) of what such a thing is.. you know tribal / clan societies. Democracy can not be instilled or thrust upon a peoples (Kurd, Sunni, Shi'), it should come from the bottom up. Let the people get rid of their own bloody dictator. State Terrorism? You do know that Iraq did not attack the US on 9/11?

Courthouserules
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Observer: macho

Your attitude is wrong.
"Bloody dictators" are everywhere---why don't we invade then all---they don't have oil!

There will be no more fredom in Iraq now than there ever was. They are looking for a dictator right now!
A righeous one of course!

There are more rapes in the USA than Iraq had in 100 years. Our police don't rape people but our heroes and hollywood types do!

Observerofu
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I dare you to prove that stat

Show me the stats on that. Or is that more bull coming from you?

bladderq
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Proving "stats"

Can you prove in Gulf War I that Kuwati babies were killed in their incubators? Nightline tonite says that 1 in 5 women on a college campus will be raped. I guess New Zealand & Australia should come on & invade to save us from ourselves & protect their Commonwealth Canadian sisters. I for 1 would prefer a Parliament form of govt. Please come and impose one on US.

Courthouserules
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bladder: you need to....

get off this subject.
There is NO DEFENSE for wars, and to the soldier (95% anyway) anyone who doesn't defend them (wars) is a traitor.

About 300,000 humans have so far been killed since 2002 for the current two wars. One can't defend that nor can one say it was a mistake at this late date---some tried early but it was by then out of control.

It is same old story: millions in WW1; millions in WW2, many thousands in Korea and VietNam dead and wounded. (We won't talk about the Crusades of the Christians and Muslims, nor the Biblical wars).

I know of no permanent fix any of them made---even WW1 WW2. The stupid Germans would have melted out from ignorance and evil if they had taken England and Russia and China. Like Napoleon, Khan, Alexander, Caesar.
However, the heroes involved had no such thoughts and were doing their job as any good soldier does. They did not make the decisions.

Observerofu
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Give WAR a chance

You said "there is no defense for war" REALLY?

"Saddam Hussein

Full name Saddam Hussein al-Majid al-Tikriti. AKA 'Great Uncle', AKA 'Lion of Babylon', AKA 'Lion of Iraq', AKA 'Beast of Baghdad'. Saddam translates to 'One Who Confronts'.

Country: Iraq.

Kill tally: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqi and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranian combatants killed during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. No conclusive figures for the number of Iraqis killed during the Gulf War, with estimates varying from as few as 1,500 to as many as 200,000. Over 100,000 Kurds killed or "disappeared". No reliable figures for the number of Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims killed during Saddam's reign, though estimates put the figure between 60,000 and 150,000. (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of international trade sanctions introduced following the Gulf War.

If nothing else this butcher of women and children is dead and the WORLD is better for it.

1987 - Saddam launches the so-called Anfal (spoils of war) campaign against Kurdish dissidents who have aided the Iranians during the war. It is reported that thousands of Kurds are indiscriminately killed when villages are attacked with poisonous gas. The international humanitarian organisation Human Rights Watch estimates that at least 40 such chemical attacks take place.

The most notorious attack occurs at the village of Halabjah on 16 March 1988 when mustard gas and nerve agents are used to kill up to 5,000 and injure up to 10,000 more.

But I thought they did not have WMDs? Guess I was mistaken.

hutch866
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bladder

If I remember right, you had something better to do too then go to 'Nam. Seems a little hypocritical to rag someone about something you didn't have the nads to do either. Just saying.

bladderq
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UH-hh nades?

I protested the war in Viet-Nam. If my # had come up, I'm pretty sure my "something else to do" would have been to join David Harris in jail & even today Canada is looking even better. There is no dis-honor in being a person of conscience. That war was nothing but an intervention in a civil war but I don't have the space to re-write the Pentagon Papers here. At the end of the today, 'Nam seems to be getting along OK. The US by its actions caused most if not all of the hardships. Iraq is & will be shown to be a dumba@@ move by a dumb@@ Harvard MBA (read McCormick's "What They Don't Teach.."). Anyone w/ any sense can see that Irag is not a country but a colonial "Balkanization" of 3 distict cultures. The sanctions were working. No No-Fly was working. AND guess what? Still No WMD. None.

hutch866
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Not nades, nads

But that's alright bladder, the world needs both cowards and hypocrites. I'm sure you were in the front when it came time to spit and such.

Insayn
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Hippies; hard to stomach

Hippies; hard to stomach even when they bathe. This guy, like his name implies, is full of waste.

Thank you, sir, for your service.

bladderq
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Daddy, What did you do in the war?

My intial draft # was 10. I was the 10th boy child to register in my district. I went thru the 2nd lottery & was 186 (?). If you want to discuss something come back after you have read, "Fire in the Lake" "A Bright & Shining Lie: John Paul Vann..." "The Best & the Brightest" read McNamara's apology. Read Dean Rusk. If it was not for all the smelly hippies, your grandchildren would be sloughing thru the swamps of SE Asia. Sorry they find themselves mired in the deserts of SW Asia. Once again We the People have been duped into some short of patriotic Can-Do frenzy. You do know there was no Gulf of Tonkin attack? You do admitt there was NO Weapons Of Mass Destruction?
When will they ever learn? Forgive them Father, they know not what THEY do

Mike King
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Bladderg

Having read each of what you reference, and not dismissing your objection for national conflict, why was it that those of your ilk chose to shun those less fortunate upon their return from Southeast Asia? Please tell me that it wasn't you who chose to spit on returning soldiers.

Could it be that you have a void somewhere in your personna that you need to fill for not living up to your family values?

Perhaps as you say, "We the People have been duped into some short of patriotic Can-Do frenzy", and you may well be correct. Could you then explain at what criterion would you stand shoulder to shoulder with a fellow citizen to defend your shared country? Or could it be that you elect to pick and choose in hopes that others will take up a cause for which you have neither the stomach nor courage to stand?

Yes, I am a veteran.

Courthouserules
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MIKE

I have no dog in this war hunt---I did my time as a teenager--but I would appreciate your definition of "family values."

Just as I think I understand what it means, something happens to alter it's meaning. Could it be different for some than others?

Maybe just the word "values" is the problem. Now that is different for say a Rockefeller and maybe Sarah Palin!

Did Hitler have family values? Roosevelt? Churchill? Eisenhower? Truman (a great guzzler and gambler).

Is it a religious thing?
Is it the upholding of an interpretation of the Constitution or the Bible?

Or, is it just being consistent at anything?

Mike King
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CHR$

Realizing that the manner in which I used the word 'values' may have accidentally dodged your senses, I offer the following:

I use the term values to mean doing what is expected without a nudge like using the table manners taught you as a child, sharing of one's harvest simply because they are a neighbor, giving blood unknowing of the recipient, and I could go on but even you get the picture now.

And yes, answering the call of arms as done by one's forebears who insured both you and I the continued opportunity to express ourselves on this medium.

Courthouserules
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MIKE

I mostly meant "family values" but thanks anyway.

I still don't get the "value" of just "table manners," sharing food with a neighbor who may not need it as opposed to welfare, and "giving blood," (I have used more than I have contributed--can't do anymore) as much of a political platform!

Aren't we talking about the results of our children; abortions when needed; total charity; Christianity, or other religions; felonies committed; thievery and robbery; taking advantage of the ignorant; and loaning money where it shouldn't be loaned? Then there is all that "character, principles, upright, Christian, dependable," BS where it is all opinionated.
Also, it is us and them----whomever them is! Do Colonels have more of it than Privates?

Git Real
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Great Line
Mike King wrote:

Could it be that you have a void somewhere in your personna that you need to fill for not living up to your family values?

Great Post!

Courthouserules
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GIT

He doesn't own guns like the rest of his family! He may be a Buddah person!

bladderq
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Spitting on Soldiers

As a veteran I would ask you if you were ever spat upon? Every urban myth has an element of truth & I am sure such an incident happen but like Kuwati babies & incubators in GWI, it is over blown. I of course have friends & close friends who went. They were always grateful to get "bricks" of papers as care packages. I was in classes & socialized w/ the GI Bill. I also know Chuck Searcy (now living in Hanoi helping US biz in country), who like Kerry was a Viet Vet Against the War. So, I guess I would say the only spit was in a shared doobie way. Now, I'm puz'd by the Family Values..Yours, mine, Palin/Bristol, Newtster, Barney Franks?
I would certainly serve. You know like a sneak attack on the actual country. Not one that a man w/ some experience (Ike) warned about getting mired. Not Iraq, because the sanctions /no-fly were working. No WMD as verified by "Mr" Palme (I guess I forgot we can add Traitor to Chaney's resume). No backing from our allies, unlike GWI. It was certainly set up to be what it has become. I guess a yes to GWI, the Sadman had become a regional threat to our Allies (Saudi, et al) and unfortunately our 50 + too long depend. on oil. Just think Anderson was skewered in '80 for 50 cent tax. A big yes to Afgani. It certainly was the a den of vipers. Should have been in 'n out and let the Northern Alliance have it. Wasn't because could not put enuf boots on the grd AND take care of Daddy Bush's "mistake" & his unsucessful assasin.
I often wonder if Viet Vets w/ 20/20 think or feel it was all worth it.

PTC Observer
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Bonkers?

Is that you?

or is it Courthouse?

or both?

Mike King
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Few, if any Viet Vets would

Few, if any Viet Vets would truly say that it was worth it. The difference is they chose to serve and not 'cherry pick' as you seem to endorse. I'm sure you feel the same about those who served in Korea.

The reference to values was my perceived disapointment you exude for not living up to the expectations of your family. Only you can answer that.

But to answer your question, returning vets were spit upon as I have witnessed first hand.

bladderq
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My Family Values

Are we gonna go back over each conflict?
My Father was a WW2 8th AF guy (SSgt). I don't think he understood my position being an old school "You Called, You Serve." On another level, I think he did understand from his own experience & being the cog in the machine. He had no kind words to say for Patton & he took it personal that Curtis LeMay tried to get him killed. Did he like the hair, the women, the drugs.. think not. Mean know didn't. I later worked with him, so he thought that much about me. My Mother of course only saw her son.
Can my "Rights" & FamVals be respected & can John Lennon's "Imagine" be in every public place? I'm takin' Courthse's advice & moving on.

Watch out now, take care
Beware of greedy leaders
They take you where you should not go
While Weeping Atlas Cedars
They just want to grow, grow and grow
Beware of darkness (beware of darkness (Geo. Harrison)

Mike King
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Bladderg

Thank you for validating my assumption.

bladderq
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Nades, Nads & Hypocrits

By the last you mean the honorable service Duby Bush gave after his Daddy pulled strings & got him in a guard unit to live in a coke haven apt in Houston. AWOL for reporting to ALA. You are right, No One Invaded TX on his watch.
Chaney is a whole nother story.
David Stockmam (see he's quit drinking the kool-aid & can add again) went to "Divinity Skool"
Our own Sadsxee Chamberlin who trashed a real war hero (I know Max Cleland & Sadsax is no Max Cleland). Chuck Hagel hung his head in shame. & Who did you vote for in that election? Max is such a liberal he wanted the Federal Govt take care of what it created. Is that spelled out in the Constitution enough to satisfy the Teabaggers pay the tax?
The list is almost endless of Repugs who have made life & death command decisions & "Had better things to do"
I am a hypocrit how?
I would love to know how many of the Bush extended family have served. Not the twins. Not Jeb's (can't for reason), how about that good looking nephew? Chaney 's, oops "Don't Ask, I told" (Funny how "liberal" he got on that one. Biden's, Palin's, McCain's.
I sir, did not sign anyone's death warrant & send them to a place I would not go myself or send my spawn. AND you call me a hypocrit!

NUK_1
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....................

,..

AtHomeGym
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Bladder & "Hero"

Don't know what your definition of "hero" is, but Max Cleland doesn't fit in my definition of a "real war hero." I surely honor his service and regret that he suffered injuries like he did. But you must know that those injuries were most probably caused by his own grenades, NOT from enemy action. Hero? I think not.

Courthouserules
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GYM

Worst thing you have ever written!

Even if the grenades were Captain Cleland's, are you saying if an enemy isn't sighted at the moment someone is almost destroyed (three limbs) that the wound doesn't count?
Are "purple Heart" guys all heroes? None of them?
Are all of these silver and bronze stars being awarded over the past nine years more of a hero than Senator Cleland? Do you have any idea how many "hero" medals we have handed out lately? I do.

I know he is a democrat! Polarized brains!

AtHomeGym
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chrs, Cleland & Bladder

Point was that bladder made a flat statement that Chambliss trashed a "real war hero" and I dispute that. Yes, he was awarded a couple of other medals but if you check, you will find that, over the yrs, Dems always made a big deal of him "leaving limbs on the battlefield." and that's not the case. Regardless of whose gremade it was, it was a "FRIENDLY ACCIDENT", not the result of enemy action and not on a "battlefield". His Purple Heart is the same color as mine, the difference being mine was the result of enemy activity and his was not. And no, I am certainly no "hero" either and I cringe to see that word tossed around lightly and without justification.

Davids mom
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Max Cleland

Anyone who shed blood or suffered an injury or lost his/her life while in war protecting my freedom is a hero to me. To denigrate anyone's heroism is unheard of. Perhaps this narrative is mistaken - ????

On April 8, with a month left in his tour, Cleland was ordered to set up a radio relay station on a nearby hill. A helicopter flew him and two soldiers to the treeless top of Hill 471, east of Khe Sanh. Cleland knew some of the soldiers camped there from Operation Pegasus. He told the pilot he was going to stay a while with friends.
When the helicopter landed, Cleland jumped out, followed by the two soldiers. They ducked beneath the rotors and turned to watch the liftoff. Cleland reached down to pick up a grenade he believed had popped off his flak jacket. It exploded, and the blast slammed him backward, shredding both his legs and one arm.
David Lloyd was a 19-year-old enlisted Marine, son of a Baltimore, Maryland ship worker, who went to Vietnam because he "wanted to kill Communists."
On that day, he was in a mortar pit on a hill near Khe Sanh when he heard the explosion. Fragments bounced off his flak jacket. He ran to the injured Cleland, saying 'Hold on there, captain, the chopper will be here in a minute.'
Lloyd took off his web belt and tied it around one of Cleland's shredded legs. When the medics arrived, he left to help another injured soldier — one of the two who had gotten off the helicopter with Cleland.
That unnamed soldier was crying. 'It was mine,' he said, 'it was my grenade.'
According to Lloyd, the private had failed to take the extra precaution that experienced soldiers did when they grabbed M-26 grenades from the ammo box: bend the pins, or tape them in place, so they couldn't accidentally dislodge. This soldier had a flak jacket full of grenades with treacherously straight pins, Lloyd says. "He was a walking death trap."[4]
Due to the severity of his injuries, doctors amputated both of Cleland's legs above the knee and his right forearm.[5] He was 25 years old.

Thank you Max Cleland and the thousands of other young men and women who have sacrificed for me and mine. You put your life and limbs on line - and we're grateful.

Courthouserules
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GYM

You are simply wrong!

AtHomeGym
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chrs & 'simply wrong'

Wrong about what? It was a "Friendly accident", not a result of hostile action. And you didn't explain about your "football hero" comment--what is that all about?

PTC Observer
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Captain Cleland

was in the wrong place at the wrong time, it happened to many. It in no way takes away from his sacrifice to his country that he was severely wounded by friendly fire. He is not a hero but a wounded veteran that paid with a life of pain and hardship, he should be held up by all of us with our undying thanks and gratitude. I think if you asked Captain Cleland if he was a hero, he would say no.

bladderq
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Max as hero

What he did it to himself on purpose? How about those who were fragg'd by their own troops? I normally would not get so personal but YOU ARE AN idiot

The Wedge
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You have a loose definition of hero

Although I personally respect everyone who enlists or receives a commission in our armed forces, I know from experience that many do so for various reasons. Some reasons are self-serving, some are selfless. My point is that I view labeling someone as a "hero" to be more than merely being there. Our actions when it truly matters gives us the sobriquet of "hero". In my mind, only selfless service, regardless of personal safety or outcome, in actual combat operations, is from where a military hero hails. We are much too cavalier about throwing the term "hero" around. But that is my opinion. Having an accident in a combat zone does not suddenly bestow hero status. If I am an idiot for that opinion in your mind, then so be it. I will still sleep well tonight.

Mike King
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Canada?

No WMDs, but a whole shipload of yellow cake uranium that is not of Iraqi orgin. Let's not discuss the chemical artillery rounds discovered, since they were used only against the Iranians, then Kurds so they don't count.

I'm sure the Canadian government can't wait for you to arrive.

Courthouserules
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MIKE

That is not what General Powell said he had!
Most of the killer bombs that have mangled, blown up brains, and killed us lately (9 years) was our own artillery shells and those of Saddam's we didn't collect when we got there.
I don't think they now have IED factories to make the base explosives!

Some things don't deserve defending when it is a mistake. That doesn't forfeit earned battle medals. Just a lesson about deaths!

Mike King
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CHR$

Oh Great One, please tell us what Colin Powell said they had!

IED factories are merely Islamic 'home' businesses operated by myrmidons incapable of independent thought and dense enough to blindly follow the dictates of those who refuse to lead by example. Quite similar to a number of Democrats I know.

Courthouserules
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MIKE

You disappoint me when you are reminded about what Powell told the UN about those vicious trucks with rockets and chemical bombs on them running around in Iraq, and still deny it! He even had pictures of those bug spray trucks!
Most embarrassing for him. and The CIA.
They badly needed another excuse, so they believed.
Just like The football player hero needed.
War is hell, made by hellions.

Yeah, we should have invaded Africa from where the "yellow-cake" came.
That big old cannon leaned against a hillside was scary too!

Our p[lanes were able to take care of all that easily. But it wouldn't have solved the oil problem.
Wish you were able to read the researched result in about 50 years of this war, when all the goofers are dead! Some of us now can see it clearly.
It takes no genius, just an open mind.

AtHomeGym
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chrs & "football hero"

What in the hell are you talking about?

Mike King
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CHR$

You have confused an open mind with a mindless void.

Courthouserules
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hutch

That was Mr. Cheney and George's excuse, something better to do! George W., Guard unit unfit for combat, and college for Dick.

I don't see the sense of a no server saying anything about the kids who served. To them it was kinda like being a cop.

Joe Kawfi
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Prayer for the unemployed

Obama is the shepherd I did not want.
He leadeth me beside the still factories.

He restoreth my faith in the Republican party.
He guideth me in the path of unemployment for his party's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the bread line,
I shall fear no hunger, for his bailouts are with me.

He has anointed my income with taxes,
My expenses runneth over.

Surely, poverty and hard living will follow me all the days of my life,
And I will live in a mortgaged home forever..

I am glad I am American,
I am glad that I am free,

But I wish I was a dog,
And Obama was a tree!

Courthouserules
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Kawfi

Well obviously you are not the poet that I am! Sorry.
Wouldn't that stuff had been better said about the one who caused it all---W. Bush and company?
Bush must have restored your faith in the republican party? That is why the TEAS!

Joe Kawfi
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B...b....b....b..b....b.b.b.b.b.bbbbbb Bush......!

Obumbles thinks that another 50bil "investment" will jumpstart the economy.
Didn't the first 800bil get the job done Barry?

This 'president' is a complete idiot.