Tipping point in the rearview mirror

Terry Garlock's picture

As America has been hurling itself toward fiscal Armageddon in recent years, pundits have described the economic tipping point we will reach some day in the future, a point of economic calamity from which our country cannot recover.

Optimists have said with patriotic fervor that America is so resilient that it will rebound from the debilitating effects of liberalism and the welfare state, we will come back as the economic and military superpower of the world.

Both are wrong.

The optimists are wrong in that our system is fragile and can be broken. I would argue we already broke it, that the tipping point was passed years ago.

I had a column bouncing around in my mind to write after Romney was elected, because surely there aren’t enough numbskulls to re-elect Obama, are there? With Romney and Ryan safely elected to take office in January, the subject of my column would have been this:

“We have a chance to turn our economic disaster around, but only a very small chance. And prospects are not promising, even with the capitalist A-team in the lead.”

If you can bear to follow my thinking, prepare to be upset.

Turn your mind’s eye to our government cutting entitlement benefits of any sort. The mere whiff in the news of cuts under consideration brings unbearable caterwauling, and the media herd stampedes to the to-be-injured parties with countless camera eyes determined to capture every tear for delivery to our living rooms with sympathy and tut-tutting.

So cutting is hard, we all know that. But how much cutting would it take?

Let’s ignore for the moment the “fiscal cliff” approaching at year end in which a multitude of taxes would be raised, begging for a recessional dip at a time we desperately need to fire up the engines of commerce.

Let’s also ignore for the moment that a Romney-Ryan pro-business America would encourage people with capital held in cautious abeyance to put it at risk to expand a business or start a new one, creating jobs and an expanding tax base to feed the federal appetite.

Let’s just deal with the tax base we have and the plain vanilla economic disaster we have created.

In 2012 our tax collections will be $2.5 trillion, but our geniuses in Washington are spending $3.8 trillion. We borrow from China and other investors 40 percent of every dollar our fed spends. The interest on that debt is $225 billion this year, but of course it grows every year as we pile on more debt, now $16 trillion and projected at $26 trillion in 2021.

If we separate federal spending into mandated programs (entitlements) and discretionary, you may want to keep the nitroglycerine pills handy if you have a weak heart.

Mandates include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, government employee pensions, military pensions, veterans compensation payments for injuries like I received, and so on, totaling $2,252 billion in 2012.

We could pay for mandates out of tax revenue, but there wouldn’t be any money left for discretionary items, which are broken down into security (armed forces, FBI, CIA, etc.) and non-security (departments of Education, State, Commerce, Interior, EPA and all the rest). We could pay for mandates but nothing else.

After paying for mandates, $1.3 trillion of borrowed money goes to discretionary items to fund the fed and armed forces, FBI, CIA, etc.

Amidst this monetary madness, the Congressional Budget Office has reported numerous duplicative and wasteful programs, but none have been eliminated to save money. It seems the closest thing on earth to eternal life is a federal program because cuts and politicians are camera-shy when the screaming starts.

The screaming over even small cuts is quickly magnified under the media microscope to the point politicians avoid cuts at all costs; they would rather ruin our children’s future by continuing to borrow mountains of money we cannot afford to repay.

We’ve all heard conservative politicians chatter about eliminating federal departments like Education, Commerce, etc., and while some such moves may be beneficial, the savings are not large enough to put a dent in the deficit problem. The heart of the problem is mandated entitlements we cannot pay for.

To solve our fiscal problem, we would need a MAJORITY of politicians with the courage to make MASSIVE cuts to entitlements, not just itty bitty symbolic cuts with a little bit of bleeding.

The cuts would need to be so deep the blood on the floor would be knee-deep, and the screaming would quickly become unbearable.

Where do we find politicians with that much courage? Maybe Romney and Ryan would have had the courage to endure the national screaming from deep cuts, but they would have had marginal help from Republicans with re-election on their mind, and stiff opposition from every Democrat.

Would they have been able to pull it off? I have serious doubts.

Now that Obama is safely in the White House four more years, none of that deep budget cutting will happen, other than small, symbolic reductions that solve nothing.

Even worse, business owners who have been holding their breath, along with their capital, hoping for a Romney-Ryan change to the anti-business climate, now will have to deal with an escalating war on business.

The Dodd-Frank legislation that is strangling small banks will continue to spit out the remaining trainload of new regulations still pending.

Taxes on successful people (small business owners) will be raised “to be fair.” The administration’s war on the American coal industry will likely pick up in intensity. Absurd carbon emission taxes and regulation are poised to be revived.

Obamacare implementation plods along, prompting employers with headcounts at the margin to fire employees and reduce the hours of part-timers to keep their headcount under the law’s threshold. Obama’s anti-business beat goes on.

So, what does all this mean other than the inmates have absolute control of the asylum?

Our national financial condition is a ship having struck an iceberg and taking on water, but instead of a heroic try to keep it afloat, our leaders are heading pell-mell for more icebergs while shuffling the deck chairs and telling us proudly of our re-arranged seats.

In the early 19th century, a deep-thinking Frenchman named Alexis de Tocqueville spent two years traveling around our new country and noting his observations of our system, hoping to learn and advise his countrymen on the transition from their old aristocracy to a new democracy. He wrote a brilliant book titled “Democracy in America” with many insightful observations, including this one:

“A democracy ... can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy ...”

That pretty much sums up where we are.

Half don’t pay income tax. Moochers are outnumbering the providers, and Democrats are doing a good job organizing the moocher vote machine.

Unprecedented numbers are on food stamps, many of them people who buy cigarettes, booze, tattoos, flat screen TVs, have cars and air conditioning, and our government spends our money advertising to encourage more people to apply for food stamps.

A friend recently witnessed a frantic crowd surrounding a government van as free cell phones were handed out in Union City. Wonder why they didn’t come to Peachtree City?

We have raised generations that don’t know the good life they live came from capitalism and individual responsibility, and last week they voted for free stuff and collectivism over individualism, instant gratification over the long-term good of the country.

Do I think America will recover? No, I don’t. To look into our future, tune in to Greece.

While liberals accelerate their coddling the weak, punishing the successful and snickering at nay-sayers like me and thinking us fools, America is crumbling, much like Rome burned while Nero fiddled.

But even if we had elected Romney, and even if he had pulled off the unlikely miracle of reversing our course of financial ruin, do you think we could have restored the foundation of our country that has been trampled for decades – a federal government limited to constitutionally enumerated powers?

Neither do I.

[Terry Garlock of Peachtree City occasionally contributes a column to The Citizen.]

suggarfoot
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government entitlements

"Turn your mind’s eye to our government cutting entitlement benefits of any sort. The mere whiff in the news of cuts under consideration brings unbearable caterwauling, and the media herd stampedes to the to-be-injured parties with countless camera eyes determined to capture every tear for delivery to our living rooms with sympathy and tut-tutting."

If people only knew...Terry...Section 8 housing would be a real good place for someone to do an article and expose just who we are paying to house.

I found out today that we the taxpayers are paying to house criminals along with the poor!

The civil liberties crowd have been hard at work.

I have been helping someone with their rental properties. They have some Section 8 renters. One of them recently struck me. Later, I encounted another wanting to rent that seemed very pushy. So much so that I went down to the police department and ran their background. This person had 3 assault charges against them since 2010, as well as drugs, shoplifting etc. I was amazed. This person also was getting their rent 100% paid for by HUD. They were young and able bodied but didn't work.

In a rather heated conversation with a high up Section 8 state offical, I was chided for relying on their background check. I was told that they only check to see if the person's income is low enough to qualify and that as far as criminal background they checked to see if the person was a pedifile or had a conviction for meth! There may be one or two other things she left out, but she told me that was all they checked for.

I think most would be like myself and find it horrifying that our hard earned tax dollars go to house criminals as well as the poor. This is clearly an area that needs reform before anyone talks about senior's social security. Yet our politicians can't be ignorant of this. Is it because it is easier to control little old ladies than criminals? Is it because these people with criminal backgrounds would riot, while the little old ladies would just cry? Is this sort of thing realy fair to the taxpayers? I am frankly very disgusted with what I'm seeing.

rolling stone
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suggarfoot

I suggest that the landlord that you are assisting stop taking Section 8 vouchers or that you get out of the business. Being very disgusted is not good for your health.

suggarfoot
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rolling stone

they have quit. I'm the one that makes the call now...and as you can imagine...after doing the background checks, I haven't had one that made the cut. I do criminal and credit and then I just try to see if they are a good fit. So far...no. I am disgusted with what I walked into, the property owner thought they were doing a good deed, but they were being abused and taken advantage of.

Davids mom
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SUGGARFOOT

. . .and the country has indicted that they are sick and tired of what you are implying. (That civil liberty advocates ignore other's rights and do not demand standards of citizenship from those who have been denied civil rights/opportunities) I agree that Section 8 housing should be carefully monitored. Not only one group of labeled American citizens are using Section 8 vouchers. Property owners have a responsibility to also demand a say in who rents their property. (But for some, they are just grateful for the promised government check they receive each month). In California, there were organizations that gave 'renters' a course in the responsibility that they had in maintaining Section 8 housing. I always felt it was the government's responsibility to demand this training before issuing the voucher. I also have been a strong proponent of residents of government housing having a larger responsibility in maintaining the property - or losing their right of residence. In today's world, unfortunately too many of the poor also have a criminal record. Unfortunately, when people like you keep bringing 'race hatred' into the equation, it is difficult to try to upgrade the standards of Section 8 housing.

MYTMITE
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Entitlements--I know what you mean Sugarfoot. I spent three

weeks, almost 8 hours a day trying to report someone abusing the food stamp program and no one wanted to listen. It was easier to let it go than to try to investigate and do something about it. We are rapidly sliding down the slippery slope I mention and there is no apparent way to climb back up and the sad part is that our government is perpetuating this travesty. It is heartbreaking.

Davids mom
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Mytimite

Don't waste your time with someone who can't say 'yes'. You must have evidence of the specifics in #2. Store where fraud was witnessed. Time of observation. If possible, clerk station. Possible knowledge of additional income/fraudalent claims of suspect. Name, address, etc. of suspect (if possible)

Instructions
◦ 1
Contact the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services toll-free at 1-800-447-8477. You will reach the Inspector's General's Hotline, and representatives are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm, Eastern Standard Time. You can also fax your complaint to 1-800-223-8164 or email hhstips@oig.hhs.gov.


◦ 2
Provide the representative with a brief description of the Food Stamp fraud. Ensure that you include specific instances where you have witnessed the abuse. Give the representative the accused individual's contact information.


◦ 

◦ 3
Offer the representative your contact information so he may be able to reach you with additional questions. Correspondence can remain anonymous; however, the Office of Inspector General encourages you to share your information. If you wish for your claim to be submitted secretly, always let the representative know whether you are speaking to her directly or using electronic correspondence.



Read more: How to Report Food Stamp Fraud | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_5510624_report-food-stamp-fraud.html#ixzz2CmRD2aBF

MYTMITE
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Yes, I saw that Dr. Phil show also--find someone who can say yes

DM, thanks for the advice but I was in the workforce for many years and one of the things I was most adept at was getting things done. On that basis along with several others, I received many promotions. I know how to go through channels, I also know how to look things up on the internet. The government posts many sites offering information on how to report things, just as our representatives post their numbers for contacting them everywhere yet the government is not in a hurry to follow up on anything or to change anything--it is much easier to let it slip by---but thanks for taking the time to look all that informaton up.

Davids mom
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Oops

I have no doubt you are a very accomplished individual. Sorry you aren't getting better results.

MYTMITE
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Yes, DM, I, too, am sorry that many of our government employees

do not care about the waste or cheating on so many programs,but, hey, the taxpayers pockets are deep so it is easier to just tax more than to clear up the problems.

suggarfoot
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Wonderfull Mayor standing up for what is right

http://www.callawyer.com/clstory.cfm?eid=923321

I'm sure DM and the civil liberties group will think it bad, but people in other areas aren't taking it lying down....they are fighting back!

Rex Parris is my kinda man! Way to go!

Davids mom
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Wrong again Suggarfoot!
Quote:

Parris calls the lawsuit's accusations of racial bias "deeply offensive and hurtful." He claims that he received more than 50 percent of Lancaster's African-American vote at the polls in April, and he points to loyal African-American supporters.
Chief among them is Bishop Henry Hearns, who heads a local parish and preceded Parris as mayor. "I know him, I know his heart," Hearns says. "I know his household. I know how young people - black, white, and brown - were in his house and out when his kids were growing up, and they were just like part of the family."

Talk what you know. California I know - and Lancaster and Palmdale have been peacefully integrated areas for generations. When Section 8 residents are sent to areas with no training on how to maintain a home, the area becomes blighted. Unfortunately, many families tried to escape the gangs by seeking residence in the outlying districts of LA City . The families of 'gang' members were included. Your kind of 'southern' hate is unfounded in this incidence. Civil liberties has nothing to do with this. This community is not fighting to keep it's city 'white' - it's fighting to keep it's city peaceful, clean, and secure. This community is integrated. I have no problem with citizens anywhere protecting the peace and security of their community - and maintaining their homes. There is no 'Clayton County' cry here!

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Section 8 tenants in general

I have owned and or managed rental properties for years. At one time managed a portfolio of over 60 properties. I have dealt with Section 8 tenants, no more.

They are not all bad, but in general, they are certainly not worth the problems.

Davids mom
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Spyglass

And you got your 'government' check! If the tenants lost their right to the voucher when certain standards were not maintained, I KNOW that the managing of Section 8 tenants would not be as difficult. There was a distinct difference between those in California who took advantage of the training - and those who didn't. Unfortunately, there was no consequence for not taking the training. Training does not require another program - just improvement to the one that exists.

Spyglass
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Your point is?

I said I stopped handling them. Too much trouble. Leaches on society, etc. I and the property owners just didn't feel right taking the Govt money. There should be a limit on how long folks can stay on this program.

And before you say it, most of the folks I dealt with where white.

Davids mom
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Spyglass

Your point well taken. My point is that there should be a responsibility of the recipients in maintaining the basic appearance of the property. (Section 8). Or lose the section 8 benefit.

Robert W. Morgan
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And another responsibility would be to get a job, right?

Get a job and keep it, don't commit a crime, don't have children you can't afford, maintain the property, don't disturb the neighbors, no mugging senior citizens on the cart paths, pay the utility bills, don't provide shelter to your 15 deadbeat friends - all good and reasonable rules and when those rules are adhered to, I can fully support the government subsidizing someone's housing costs - assuming they can't afford it on their own.

Davids mom
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For all Americans - right?

Even those who look like you and me! LOL

MYTMITE
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So, Robert Morgan, say it isn't so. Please say you have not

been in drag and in reality are a middle to old-aged woman or is it DM who has been parading as a woman when in reality shim is really a balding, aging, beer-guzzling RM double. Oh, the agony! We have been duped, again.

Robert W. Morgan
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Well yes, of course. Same rules for all Americans. Naturally.

Why we would even consider different rules for different people? We are all God's children, are we not?

Don't know what you mean about looking like me (an aging, but handsome media figure) or you (a Cleopatra with an aquiline face and supple body in a crossing guard uniform) - which of course means we have different looks, so what's your point?

If you or I met the rule requirements for Section 8 housing and we needed it income-wise, I would be happy to take it and move in and proud to have you as my neighbor. I would even agree to watch your cat when you had to go to the school crossing. I wouldn't feed her (well, I might feed her to your Asp - or vice versa), but I would watch her. Of course, so would my pit bull. And he (Vickster) would be yours to watch when I go to my AA meetings. You cool with that?

Davids mom
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RWM- reality

The reality is that most of the citizens that I have met in Fayette County are like you. Unfortunately, what is posted here often does not represent your point of view as expressed in the above post. You're cool! This does not mean I feel you are a 'liberal' or a 'conservative' - just a cool human being.

suggarfoot
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no where did I mention race

But if you can throw it in....YOU ALWAYS DO. Alway mudding the water so you can set the stage for your favorite thing... a pity party

Davids mom
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Suggarfoot

You are entitled to your beliefs - but the perception of your beliefs is ruining the party of Lincoln. I'm a Democrat - and not involved in any 'pity party' in 2012! Wake up. Jeb Bush, Jr. and his young counterparts are the hope of the party of Lincoln. I wish then well. They can stand by their conservative principles without appearing racist or sexist. The 'Southern Strategy' has run its course.

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DM

You might consider it a bias or hate or whatever, but where the Hell do you come up with this?

"When Section 8 residents are sent to areas with no training on how to maintain a home, the area becomes blighted."

Surely, you're not advocating another government program. The blight comes from an entitlement mentality without a work ethic.

Davids mom
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Another program?

No!! Strengthen what already exists by demanding standards of responsibility of those who qualify for Section 8 vouchers. In Canada, residents of a community are instilled with pride in their community - and there are communities where residents have different incomes, etc. The blight comes from the lack of parent involvement, community pride, low expectations, and classism/racism - that does not so blatantly exist in Canadian communities as in some American communities. The 16% of minority residents in Fayette County are not here because they want to lose the value of their property/investment. But they are included in the rhetoric against 'Clayton County' because of their skin color. They are not acknowledged for their contribution to the community (20% of business owners). At least according to some of the contributions made here This is not the reality of Fayette County - but it is the perception of the Republican Party throughout our country today. Get over the passing of the Civil Rights Bill. It is 2012. No one is crying or whining. There are citizens who agree with much of the 'conservative' concerns - but it is perceived as against blacks, browns and women. As if they are the only ones who have an entitlement mentality. Come on people. There are 'white men' living in Section 8 housing. There are 'white men' who take advantage of unemployment funds. There are 'white men' who are in prison, selling drugs, prostituting, etc. Don't we want an improvement of work ethics from all of our citizens? No need for another government program. We need to improve what already exists.

suggarfoot
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so

true Mike

Robert W. Morgan
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Some training is not unreasonable, IMHO

No, we sure don't need another government program, but if the government is there anyway "inspecting" the home and presumably doing a report on it's condition, then that inspector knows what is right and what is wrong. What would be the problem with him or her taking an extra 1/2 hour each visit to impart some basic wisdom to those that are clueless about maintaining a home.

I do know that the government inspector mentality leans toward the IRS auditor or Gestapo mode, but writing reports and assessing fines accomplishes very little with the free ride crowd. Of course you could argue that training means very little to the free ride crowd as well - they'd probably expect the government to provide someone to rake leaves ad clean the gutters and change light bulbs. Maybe we'll head in that direction during the upcoming 4 more years.

Davids mom
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RWM
Quote:

they'd probably expect the government to provide someone to rake leaves ad clean the gutters and change light bulbs

This has happened in the government housing that I am familiar with! Residents 'protested' instead of raking the leaves themselves!! A community group brought 'rakes' and spent the afternoon working with the residents cleaning up the property. After that - the environment was much cleaner - maintained by residents. Our president was not raised in an entitlement environment - and organized many of the self-help activities that improved impoverished areas. If we can get beyond the racism/classism/sexism - liberals and conservatives can work together to tackle some of these problems. If, however, we spend the next two years electioneering - very little will be accomplished. What happens in the next four years will be up to ALL OF US - not just the Democrats and/or Republicans.

Robert W. Morgan
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Eye-grabbing headline there, sugar

"Wonderful mayor" is not something I'm used to seeing on here. Nevertheless, it is indeed wonderful that someone is standing up against this willful government stupidity. As is almost always the case, we don't really need new laws and regulations - we simply need to enforce the existing ones.

Our own mayor did promise the new owners of Harmony Village were opting out of the Section 8 programming and cleaning out the place. How is that going so far?

I also suspect the Obama administration will itself feel "entitled" to interpret the existing Section 8 laws much more freely during the next 4 years. That will create some pushback from landlords opting out. We really are our own worst enemy.

suggarfoot
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Robert

Did you read the comments to that piece? The town is behind this guy. Section 8 housing should be done away with. I never dreamed the government was giving out housing vouchers to people with criminal backgrounds. In my eyes, they are destroying neighborhoods and putting the lives of people like myself in danger, becuase they are comming straight to our door with housing vouchers. I had to get the police to get the one out of my office that I turned down because of her criminal background. For sometime time now, I have felt 'stalked' as she seems to turn up at public locations I'm at and makes sure I know she is there.

If you have a criminal background, you should not be given free housing and goodies by the hardworking taxpayers.

If people could see how mean some of these people are. The way the look at you and try to bully you. The way they tear up your property. The look of sheer arrogance and entitlement on their faces.

Our politicians know about this.
They have voted for the laws that make all this possible and are the very people that have enabled them.

Robert W. Morgan
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Sure the politicians know all about Section 8, sugar

they are simply pandering for votes among the entitled moocher class. Even being on the dole completely doesn't make them ineligible to vote, doncha you know. The criminal background thing is tricky. I guess if they have retained or regained their right to vote or they have a slew of relatives that vote - they get a green light on Section 8 and lots of other goodies. 4 more years, four more years.

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The other half of the equation

Terry,
You've addressed one half of the equation, but not a word about the other monster demanding tax dollars faster than they can be printed. Defense spending is a significant drain on the U.S. Treasury. We send brave young men and women all over the world, spend trillions of dollars on their accoutrements, and accomplish next to nothing. Since the end of WW II, both Democrats and Republicans seem equally inept at reigning in defense spending or making any lasting impact on the world.

Let's make sure that runaway defense spending enters any discussion of how America is going to hell in a hand basket.

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STF and Mr. Garlock, the one thing our government seems to feel

is expendable and the one we should treasure the most is our young citizens. We send these young men and women to fight for these countries that do not fight for themselves and actually do not want us there. In many instances, they come home broken in body, spirit and mind, and we do not do right by them. Not since World War II have we actually fought for our country. I often think we are like the young boy scout who is going to help the old lady across the street whether she wants to cross or not--we are always 'liberating' someone who does not seem to want our help. It sounds good to tout all the altruistic reasons we are there, but in reality it is because we want access to their oil or want bases on their soil, etc. We are spreading ourselves so thin that if the day comes anytime soon that we do have to defend ourselves we will lack the financial means or the manpower to do so. I think it is reprehensible to send our young people to be maimed physically and emotionally to protect people who turn on them and do them bodily harm and for all the wrong reasons. And this is true with both our political parties.

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STF, If you read carefully I didn't leave out defense . . .

. . . and you might find me an unexpected ally in your corner, at least partly. We need a strong armed forces - and a president who isn't an appeasing empty suit - but it does seem a committee of blind monkeys could spend our defense dollars more wisely.

First part of making our military strong is to stop using them as a leftist social experiment, pushing the notion that military service is a "right."

And of course we should stop pouring money - and lives - down the rathole of unnecessary wars. Our current wars spend the lives of our best, impose on them stupid rules of engagement that risk their lives to protect the indigenous population, seek world opinion instead of victory, tear apart their families with one deployment after another, and leave the rest of American youth untouched so they can play video games and focus on Dancing with the Stars. Plus, while we at home do nothing, we send these good troops on impossible nation-building missions, and do them the dishonor of all that being driven by dishonest politics.

I would be all for bringing our troops home, deploy them to secure our borders with lethal force (just to be clear, kill anyone trying to enter the country illegally), and patrol the seas on and below the surface, standing ready to squash like a bug any enemy that screws with us. If we are selective in which monkeys to add to the budget committee, should be able to save lots of money in the bargain.

Terry Garlock

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Mr. Garlock, I so agree with you. I am sure many would find

your comments appaling. In my estimaton, those are the ones who have made it possible for us to be in the situation we are now in. We need to make our country strong again, secure our borders, use our fighting men and women to protect THIS country and not try to be all to everybody all over the map. We need to stop sending billions to countries to trying to make them our friends---we should know by now that it does not work. We need to stop working behind the lines to prop up dictators and other reprehensible leaders because it always comes back and bites us in the posterior, and they end up using our equipment to kill our own people. All of this has to change before we can even begin to start recovering financially or any other way. And get over this political correctness--it is sending us down that dark hole and I wonder if we can ever dig ourselves out.

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Reasonable Defense Spending

Terry,
We are mostly in agreement here. Like you, I believe that defense spending should be to DEFEND the United States from enemies, not to police the world. A focus upon this primary objective would result in a significant financial dividend that would go a long way toward fiscal sanity.

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Defense

I suppose it all depends on how you define defense, is defending our trade channels included? Is defending our flow of oil supplies and other resources from foreign sources included?

The fact is that all the fighting we are doing is to protect our interest in natural resources. While at the same time our government restricts the development of domestic resources including gasoline cracking. What's really scarcely is the fact that it's our government that's doing all this defending and our civilian "leaders" are "leading" it.

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Confederate Children

I hate to break it to you Eric Rudolf survivalists, but if our nation can survive eight years of George Dubya Bush, it can survive Obama.

You're going to team up with a bunch of survivalists? give me a break. Go look in the mirror. My money says that you have a huge gut, which means you're not lacking for anything.

And now you want to turn your back on your nation, which is telling. It means you are a fair-weathered friend and were no patriot to begin with, and all this time you were the same ones screaming about the perceived lack of patriotism from liberals.

If you want a repeat of 1861, then get ready for a repeat of 1865. It will play out the same way because there are too many people with too much invested to see hick states like Texas take all the marbles and go home. Those marbles aren't just theirs. People invested in that infrastructure, technology, refineries, etc.

Furthermore, those of you planning your "exit strategy": Good luck finding the country you seek. Where is it? Where is this so-called conservative paradise in which you can live by your Ayn Rand code? It doesn't exist.

The only countries that are equal to or more right wing than the USA are in the Middle East and speak Arabic, Farsi, and other similar languages. Better know the direction of Mecca, because that's what you'll be praying to (which is fine if that's your religion).

You want to try Canada? That's a nation in which the conservative party is more liberal than our Democrats. Won't work there.

How about Europe? Well, get ready for their national healthcare. It's a lot stronger than Obamacare.

But I have a better idea: Stop whining like little children and make the best of the situation. Put your UNION flag right-side-up and learn from history.

The Confederates were the bad guys. Lincoln was the leader of the good guys. It was about slavery. And the right side won.

So, again, I say this: If you want a repeat of 1861, you're going to get a repeat of 1865.

PTC Observer
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GoodPalMike - That's

what I like a spirited defense of the idea that the good ole USA is not exceptional. It is just like every other socialist society, so we should just stop whining, relax and enjoy our slow spiral into oblivion. Right Mike?

There is no doubt that the United States will survive but it will not and is not United. There is no union because the people are not united, or do you deny this simply fact. The fact that the socialists won the election doesn't automatically make us all one happy family, no matter how you wish it so.

You are naive Mike, if you think that we will not pay for our uncontrolled government. History has shown that we will pay dearly.

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Geeeez Mikey. Chill out good pal. This ain't a war.

And certainly not a civil war. It is not 1861, nor will it be 1865. Instead it is 2012/2013 going to 2014 where my fantasy is that Prezbo is confronted with an 80% Republican House and a 65% Republican Senate because he has been doing a bad job. Of course that is a wild impossible fantasy.

Or maybe something more realistic. Maybe the Entertainer-in-Chief charms the black and brown and tan country into a 50/50 House and preserves the Dem controlled Senate. Fine. Good for him.

But, this is about me and my exit strategy - just in case Prezbo gets some tepid support in the mid-terms from those that gave him a second term and they elect more Dems into Congress. God help us, but it is really, really possible..

Mike, someone who exits the system does not have to leave the country. The exiting person only has to stop paying taxes and stop being visible and stop being able to be contacted. Even the 12,000 new IRS agents that Prezbo has hired to monitor us will get tired of staking out that PO Box in Bumfluke Montana. Pretty simple and if I can do it - thousands more can and will do it. Like restaurant owners who have to cut servers and cooks back to 28 hours or just give up and join us internal ex-patriates.

Tax revenue will be way down.

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Comrade Mikey

Wrong war comparison Comrade, this isn't about slavery, this is about government tyranny, you need to think earlier, back to 1776!

WE all remember how that one finished as well, with God's help and the founders guidance we will prevail once again.

"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" Benjamin Franklin -GP

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Gp Comrade Mike only know his revisionist history...

...that's why he used the Civil War and Slavery as an analogy.

You are of course correct in the 1776 reference. It is about Government Tyranny and the ursurption of the Constitution by BOTH PARTIES. The "R"s are no better then the "D"s. In this they are both corrupt and only seek wealth and power.

Show me ONE just ONE politician that goes in and does not come out RICHER then when they went in.. All for usually less then they made in the private World.

stranger than f...
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Wonders Never Cease

Congratulations S. Lindsey!
You have succeeded in making a cogent argument instead of merely spewing vitriol. I would have never predicted this denouement from you.

S. Lindsey
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well STF-U-should listen more often

I don't spew Vitriol.. I emphatically state my beliefs and defend those beliefs with vigor.. Can't handle that.. not my problem

stranger than f...
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Pardon the approbation Mr. Lindsey

Then pardon the approbation. Persist with broadcasting your myopic world view, defend your straw men, and vilify all dissenters. But don’t be surprised when your venomously delivered homilies yield no new converts. This IS your problem. Soften your tone, listen empathically before typing your reply, and you may not only garner an audience but learn something as well. Hope you can handle it.

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STF-classic ad hominem attacks get you no where.

..with me. Like I once told a particular poster here who happened to love to attack family members when he lost an argument...one has to care about another's opinion to in order to feel insulted.

Anytime you wish to debate a subject instead of attack the poster let me know.. I will be your Huckleberry.

btw- care to share what particular arguments you think I have been vitriolic about?

You do know the definition of Vitriol don't you?

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Not a personal attack, but a questioning of ineffective method

Mr. Lindsey, the issue I’m addressing is your method of expression. Even though you consider my exposing your method as an “attack” unworthy of debate, in this blog alone, you have made the following characterizations:

“Reading comprehension is not your strong suit”
“the absolute stupidity of your own beliefs”
“feel good socialist propaganda talking points.”
“so bend over and say thank you.”
“Comrade Mike.”

You may at times have some valid arguments; however, your forceful and insulting verbiage along with hyperbole (“nonstop express train for Armageddon”) repel all but the most fervent disciples of your ideology. If your goal is emotional catharsis, congratulations! If you desire to persuade others, it’s failing miserably. Remember your rhetoric rules: Don’t let the messenger obscure the message.

Btw- even though you are using “Huckleberry” in the sense of a recent western movie, it also has an older and less glamorous meaning as a rube or yokel. I’ll assume you were citing Doc Holiday.

S. Lindsey
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Well STF since you are sort of New here...

... your historical reference is tainted by just a few months of postings.

You would need to read past posting of some of these posters to understand the history between us. So by judging me on what you have read here is a bit unfair isn't?

..and besides who are you to judge anyway? Don't like what I write don't read it.

stranger than f...
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Self-judgment would be preferable.

Mr. Lindsey, remember that you requested my citations of your vitriolic postings.

I agree that you can readily ignore my judgments of your methodology. My hope is that you will self-judge and adopt a strategy that might be effective and ethical. Think of it as a parallel to Mitt Romney’s suggestion for self-deportation because it is the right thing to do.

As for the vengeance motive you cite, perhaps you should heed 1st Century Roman poet, Juvenal, “Revenge is always the weak pleasure of a little and narrow mind.”

S. Lindsey
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stf-Opinions are like....

...well you know.. everyone has'em and usually they are full of it as well.

Much like you think my post are vitriolic I feel your postings are inane and barren of intellectual thought something I call Pseudo-Intellectualism.
Your remark about the "Vengeance" motive proves that point.. You clearly don't know what you are talking about but yet felt it necessary to comment anyway.

How about arguing the issue if possible and stop worrying rather I am bitter or passionate about saving my Country.

However I do agree with this..

stranger than fiction wrote:

“Revenge is always the weak pleasure of a little and narrow mind.”

President Obama wrote:

Vote! Voting's the best revenge!

Yep I agree with that one...

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Very Good point Mr. Lindsey

Great point Mr. Lindsey. The President's use of the revenge strategy weakens and belittles his argument just as it does with you. I'm glad you are finally getting it!

Davids mom
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Revenge

Has never led to cooperation. Let's hope all of our leaders understand this.

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stf & "revenge"

So was Juvenal prophetic in his writing when POTUS made the comment "Voting is the best revenge"??

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SL

Telling a Progressive I'll be your Huckleberry? Wonder how many here got it?

That is a Fantastic line from one of my favorites, I actually have a Huckleberry rig for my Colt SAA.

We all know what Doc had behind his back but I envision you holding the truth, the light that eliminates darkness.

Goodluck -GP

rolling stone
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Georgia Patriot: are you sure?
Quote:

...I envision you holding the truth, the light that eliminates darkness.

Darkness? What darkness? It's a bright sunshiny day.

PTC Observer
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Well Mr. Garlock

I think you have summed it up quite well.

“Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - T. Jefferson

This is the next step in our democratic process and it will be predicated on the financial emergency and social unrest it engenders. It will take only four more years.

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The Election and History

"Two centuries ago, a somewhat obscure Scotsman named Tytler made this profound observation: “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.” (Daily Oklahoman, December 9, 1951) from Fred Shapiro, Freakonomics.com, 2009.

S. Lindsey
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Mr. Garlock with all due respect you are wrong...

All we have to do is raise taxes on the Rich. When they FINALLY start paying their FAIR SHARE then all of our fiscal woes will be remedied.

Also once we go after those EVIL Corporations and finally tax at least 70% of their profits so that they contribute their FAIR Share then we will actually have a surplus to spend on things like Single Payer and Welfare for the needy.

We absolutely DO NOT have a spending problem we have a GREED problem. People who have more then they really need are greedy and just don't want to help educate inner-city youths so now that we have a mandate to tax and tax some more that is exactly what we are going to do.

So bend over and say THANK YOU.

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Bending over no, heading to the mountains instead

Rifles, shotguns, ATV's, water, food reserves, Dish TV - what else does one need? Go ahead and try and take my gold/silver/mutual funds/tax-free bonds/etc. and give them to the moocher class. Ain't gonna happen, Prezbo. There's a lot more like me, believe me.

I have paid my fair share for 40 years. Now it is up to someone else to provide for the moochers. I am opting out.

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So, will you still be blogging on this site when you are in your

mountain retreat? I don't think you will ever leave this area as you would go into withdrawals if you were not around to blog about our esteemed mayor. LOL

Robert W. Morgan
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I am simply getting prepared to leave quickly

Unfortunately, thanks to the ill-conceived, feel-good, liberal Community Redevelopment Act and Jimmy Carter, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, Bill Clinton, Janet Reno and others the 2007 housing bust (which won't be over until after Rubio or Ryan is elected President) makes it very difficult to sell my house. But when that happens, I will simply move into a rental and keep my bags packed. I'm guessing the second dip of this depression/recession will occur about a year after the devastation of Obamacare becomes widespread - mostly businesses closing and massive job loss, not to mention maximum work weeks of 28 hours. Has anybody figured out yet that employers will not pay a full-time salary for a part time worker? The new normal will be 2 working parents who each have two 28 hour per week part time jobs. Of course single head of households have no hope at all under that scenario and that's when the rioting and looting begins. That's when the single mother with 3 teenage sons will have more of your stuff than you do.

I am in the mountains right now and today's chore is a trip downtown for some barbed wire for a second perimeter. Next spring the electronic outer perimeter. Next summer food and water reserves. You all just sit around waiting for the mayor and Kimmy and Skip to develop a plan to protect PTC from the looters. Me? I'll just take care of myself and my family.

And I'll probably still be there to watch the mayor get reelected or not. Difference is, I simply won't care.

JeffC
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Bye Robert

Stop by Glen Beck's place on your way and pick up some survival seeds.

S. Lindsey
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RWM..Going Galt..

I too have already executed my exit strategy.. Find a group that you can trust and fort up... I am.

NUK_1
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SL: That's a whopping 82bil a year!

Simply let the Bush tax cuts expire on ONLY those earning 250k or more and we're FLUSH! An extra 82 billion in revenue, hurray! Since we're consistently running deficits of 1 trillion+ annually, I'd like to know what math courses some of the idiots in this country took to make them so hopelessly ignorant to believe that this is any way "solves" something. It's just a token "stick it to the alleged rich and make them pay their FAIR SHARE" sloganeering, which is pathetic.

I kept waiting for Romney/Ryan to make a big point about this 82bil in extra revenue hardly being a panacea, but I guess they didn't because the next question from the media would be: "well, then what are YOU going to cut(or raise revenues) to wipe out that trillion plus?" and they were afraid the voters would hate to hear those answers.

S. Lindsey
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Nuk you would not believe the arguments I have had..

...on this point alone.. (Well maybe YOU can)

Every one of the Progressive's I have engaged on this one subject all stated or inferred that if the Rich would just pay their fair share then we would NOT be running deficits.

I cannot believe the lack of even the basic economic education in this Country.

Davids mom
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Arguments?

Most Progressives would listen to you and realize your incapability of having a rational discussion. According to you, you have all the answers. No point in arguing with that! Both 'sides' have rational ideas regarding our fiscal situation. Get the 'egos' out of the way and work! (Message to Congress)

S. Lindsey
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DM you are a classic example of Cognitive dissonance

... As NUK stated above the "Tax the Rich" crowd which YOU are a part of just can not understand the absolute stupidity of your own beliefs.

On one hand you're intelligent enough to grasp that the debt is so large that simply "Taxing the Rich" is not enough that it truly is just a drop in the bucket...but...your ideology and slavish devotion to a party and the "Party line" prevents you from voicing that fact..you quickly parrot the talking point.

DM we don't hear about SPENDING CUTS from this Administration WHY?

We don't hear about what Military bases that have to close..WHY?

We don't hear about what Government Entitlements programs are going to be scaled back...WHY?

We do hear about raising taxes... WHY? Well because this bunch in DC have no real plans to STOP spending. This and this alone is why I say you and those like Jeff, Gort and Lion are delusional if you believe this can go one forever. I have actually asked one of you that very question and he answered with an emphatic....YES

You see delusional.

DM taxing the Rich is just a feel good Socialist propaganda talking point.

WHY?

Because it only taxes INCOME..Many "Rich" do not have a INCOME they have "Gains and Dividends" to live off of.

Obama and crew are NOT taxing WEALTH DM they know that Beyonce and Jay-Z wouldn't be so friendly if they were taxed at 70% of every Million dollars over the first Million they made. I can hear the Hollywood crowd scream from here if that happened.
I doubt they would be so friendly now would they?

DM I have never said I have all the answers..but.. I am a thinker. I am also a realist. It doesn't take a Rocket Engineer to see when something like "Tax the Rich" is just window dressing for a house falling apart.

Davids mom
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FYI - sl

Under discussion now - closing loopholes, etc. That hits the 'rich' in the pocket.

S. Lindsey
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Still a drop in the bucket...

..and why do you want to "hit the Rich in the Pocket"?

Davids mom
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Me? Hit the rich?

I thought you said I'm part of the 'rich'. Just stating an opinion that would hit Byonce and JayZ. (I have no cards in that game - do you?) Come on SL - I expected a better response than that!! Disappointing. Have a nice day.

S. Lindsey
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Reading comprehension is not your strong suit is it?

I said you are part of the "Tax the Rich" crowd.. Re-read please.

Davids mom
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SL
Quote:

. As NUK stated above the "Tax the Rich" crowd which YOU are a part of just can not understand the absolute stupidity of your own beliefs

As so many of your assumptions - wrong again. I do not qualify for the ‘rich’ label. Now for the other labels that I proudly wear (black), (female) – if you, the thinker tried to attack me on those labels, my assumption that you are racist and sexist would be correct – I have been accused of also making incorrect assumptions. . .so we won’t go there.

Quote:

DM we don't hear about SPENDING CUTS from this Administration WHY?

Either because you don’t listen or read!! Many different views on spending cuts. Just sharing a few.

http://www.cfr.org/united-states/defense-spending-deficit-debate/p26442?...

http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Simpson-Bowles-Obamacare-defense/201...

http://www.defense.gov/news/Defense_Budget_Priorities.pdf

Quote:

DM taxing the Rich is just a feel good Socialist propaganda talking point.WHY?Because it only taxes INCOME..Many "Rich" do not have a INCOME they have "Gains and Dividends" to live off of.Obama and crew are NOT taxing WEALTH DM they know that Beyonce and Jay-Z wouldn't be so friendly if they were taxed at 70% of every Million dollars over the first Million they made. I can hear the Hollywood crowd scream from here if that happened.
I doubt they would be so friendly now would they?DM I have never said I have all the answers..but.. I am a thinker. I am also a realist. It doesn't take a Rocket Engineer to see when something like "Tax the Rich" is just window dressing for a house falling apart.

WOW! Now that’s delusional – but if it makes you feel better – enjoy your spinning world.

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Wow..a link to the Bowles-Simpson Commission?

That's the commission that Obama engineered and immediately ignored their findings because it was politically too difficult and a little too accurate for a guy who was running for re-election and could care less about anything else whatsoever. Gosh, that wasn't the only commission he also brought together that were also ignored completely because there was a lot of pain in the recommendations instead of the stupid "why can't we just all get along, tax rich folks more, and everything will be fine" BS progressives advocate or their complete stupidity about how taxing the "rich" and bringing in an extra 82bil a YEAR will solve a trillion dollar+ spending deficit.

Remember the Group of Six? Yep, progressives and Obama fled from that immediately too. Obama's business leaders' group? Yep, totally ignored that too.......wouldn't make the lunatic left wing fringe happy at all if those ideas were considered.

Obama and the Dems have ignored every advice they have solicited and trumpeted as being "Bipartisan" cure-alls and now they have to simply own the train wreck they have created and want to push forward.

Davids mom
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NUK

Share with us your wisdom. Why would Obama feel that it would be difficult to get his proposals through? Lunatic left fringe? What about the oh so intelligent 'right' fringe? (That lost us our credit rating) Well - lets see what happens this time, when the game isn't 'not let Obama serve a second term'.

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DM: Bowles-Simpson and etc.

Here's a good analysis of the Bowles-Simpson committee's recommendations that is not an opinion piece:
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3844

Their actual blueprint had enough in it like getting rid of the tax cuts for those over 250K and getting rid of the mortgage deduction along with a host of spending cuts that made it a great plan, though politically treacherous.

I don't see Obama(or most politicians) advocating a realistic plan that they themselves didn't come up with in the first place, hence Bowles-Simpson,Obama's "leadership council" etc. get totally ignored. Even Obama had some praise for Bowles-simpson and Paul Ryan's blueprint but those were just words that he knew he'd never have to stand behind. He could not care less.

Some know the problem(huge debt that is growing way too fast and will get only worse in the near future)but few are ready to risk their political careers over the fact that action has to be taken. They'd rather dream of huge revenues suddenly falling out of the sky and making everything great. Just wait for the Fed to print more money and then sell that same debt over and over......sounds pretty familiar, huh? Think that was tried recently with disastrous results but let's keep doing it! What politician wants to be brutally honest that EVERYONE may have to suck it up some to get the US out of this downward spiral?

Notice how none of them are saying much about the 2% SS payroll tax exemption that is going to expire at the end of this year? On a 50K income, that means the worker is facing a 1K tax hike this year right out of their pocket. Repubs/Dems did quite a stellar job of not mentioning that at all this election season and neither believe that alleged "tax cut" should be extended since it takes away from SS and adds to the deficit. Amazing how this goes unnoticed.

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NuK

Good analysis. Politics before 'service to the American people'. No surprise. But let's see if the leaders, Congress and the White House, can get it right this time. It seems the leverage has shifted - and the 2014 election looms. The political action that needs to be taken MUST be seen as action towards a balanced budget that includes revenue and cutting spending that reduces the deficit. Those who are seen as not working towards this end - are in trouble if they are up for re-election in 2014. The haters and ideologists are not in power - the Independents are. The tone of the Republicans and Democrats is changing. Let's hope it changes for the benefit of the American people - rather than the politicians.

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Nuk! Wisdom!
Quote:

EVERYONE may have to suck it up some to get the US out of this downward spiral?

PTC Observer
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Wisdom - DM

DM here's some "wisdom", there is no way that EVERYONE can get us out of this downward spiral, the numbers just don't work.

Mr. Obama will spend even more money we don't have in the next four years, some estimates put it a $22 Trillion debt load before he finally leaves office. If so, we as a country will not survive financially. Watch Europe for our future DM. Everything you see there in 2013, will come our way by 2016.

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PTCO

We're all watching PTCO. Have a nice day.

S. Lindsey
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Dm I will keep this simple for you...

How much revenue will be raised by taxing the those evil rich people?

How much do we spend per year?

How much do we take in?

What is the deficit or excess?

btw- Show me what SPECIFIC departments, agencies, programs et..al.. that has been proposed to be cut.. Specifics DM not campaign rhetoric..

Davids mom
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SL

Our leaders are working on that now! Have you sent in your suggestions?

S. Lindsey
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Dm what in History has even shown us that our "leaders"...

...have the will to make the hard decisions needed to fix this?

Year after Year they keep kicking the can down the road. With voters just keep on pulling the lever for the same ole same ole there is no need to.

Do you even know what is happening in Greece? Do you know how they got there?

We are doing the exact same thing.

Just before the "Great" Depression the Government made certain financial decisions and mistakes that caused the collapse. But remember it was Foreign banking failures that started the slide.

What's different now from then?

If you look back you would see we are today doing the same thing. DM we are headed for another even "Greater" Depression we are on a non-stop express train for Armageddon

btw- since you will not answer the original questions.. here you go.

S. Lindsey wrote:

How much revenue will be raised by taxing the those evil rich people?

How much do we spend per year?

How much do we take in?

What is the deficit or excess?

btw- Show me what SPECIFIC departments, agencies, programs et..al.. that has been proposed to be cut.. Specifics DM not campaign rhetoric..

1. The CBO estimates that the proposed tax increases om the top 1% of Americans will generate approx $82.5 Billion Dollars.

2. The CBO estimates that the Federal Government will spend $3.54 Trillion Dollars in 2012..and projects the US Government to spend $4.2 Trillion in fiscal year 2013

3. The US Federal Tax revenue generation per year according to the IRS is $2.45 Trillion Dollars

4. The US deficit for fiscal year 2012 is $1.1 Trillion dollars. The CBO projects Budget deficits of a Trillion or more per year for the next 10 years.

So DM the Federal Government has added a Trillion dollars in debt for every year Obama has been in Office AND for every year he is now re-elected to spend in Office.

By the time Obama leaves we will have added over $9 TRILLION DOLLARS in debt. So please show me where those debt reduction bills are please.

Davids mom
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SL

Isn't that what the Congressional 'leaders' are discussing now? I bet, if nothing is done to stop the 'bleeding ' regarding this crisis, the 'right wing' is toast in 2014. Balanced revenue AND spending will work towards a solution. Expecting a healing to this crisis overnight is unrealistic. Jobs are miraculously appearing in some states. (I guess the plan was to attribute that to Romney's 'win'.). Oh well.
Consumers with jobs is an important part of the solution.

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Jobs are "magically" appearing?????

Have you seen the latest jobs numbers? Have you even heard about all the layoffs and full time employment drop offs?

Wow what papers have you been reading... High Times?

Davids mom
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sl

It's fun guessing what issues you won't address. I've been right so far - a couple times I've been off, but others have you pegged.

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SL
S. Lindsey
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You know Dm that Georgia is not a Country right?

"The Department of Labor has announced that new jobless claims rose by a staggering 78,000 in the first week after the election, reaching a seasonally-adjusted total of 439,000."

That's USA numbers DM...being a little dishonest aren't you.. trying to slip Georgia's numbers into the conversation when it's was about the National numbers...but then again that's expected of you isn't it Big Girl...?

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SL

You have a fixation on the word 'big'? Interesting. Most people who live in Fayette County have an interest in what is happening in Georgia. - like the majority of people in Ohio expressed their opinion at the voting booth by what was happening in Ohio. Going to enjoy and watch the coming together of American leaders in the best interest of the American people. Keep us abreast of all the 'bad' things in our country that need correcting. We don't want to miss anything that needs a solution by a Congress that has our best interest at heart. Oops! West won't concede. Maybe he'll join those who elect to peacefully secede. Interested in what you think! LOL

PTC Observer
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Joined: 04/23/2007
Lindsey - I will say it

again, she doesn't care, and it's way too painful to acknowledge.

Just speculation, but my guess is that DM's extended family has a lot to gain from more government spending. Most of the political class does as you know.

Her children and her children's children will live in poverty right along with the rest of us.

Davids mom
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Joined: 10/30/2005
Arithmetic

You do the math! We're paying a Congress some pretty big bucks to figure this out!! Let them to their job!!

S. Lindsey
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Joined: 12/31/2008
Didn't think you would DM...

...faced with facts you usually do bail...

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