Can we keep this republic?

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As mid-term elections draw near, the chatter of TV news escalates in points and counter-points of the political tug-of-war. Whether you are on the left or right in the arguments, if you can set aside pre-conceived notions long enough to read this column, please consider that much of the noise completely misses the larger point.

For example, much was made of a mid-September televised town hall meeting arranged for President Obama to talk to citizens on camera. Whether you believe this CNBC event was fair in its presentation or that it was staged with a pre-selected friendly audience, you may remember how Velma Hart told the president she was exhausted in her defense of him.

Ms. Hart, a black woman, said in part to the president, “I’m a mother. I’m a wife. I’m an American veteran, and I’m one of your middle-class Americans. And quite frankly I’m exhausted. I’m exhausted of defending you, defending your administration, defending the mantle of change that I voted for, and deeply disappointed with where we are.”

She said, “The financial recession has taken an enormous toll on my family.” She said, “My husband and I have joked for years that we thought we were well beyond the hot-dogs-and-beans era of our lives. But, quite frankly, it is starting to knock on our door and ring true that that might be where we are headed.”

The talking heads chattered for weeks about this and other examples of unhappy citizens pleading to the president their case of personal and family travails, lost jobs and worries about paying for healthcare. While they asked each other how the president can repair the damage to public confidence in his ability to make our lives better, I wondered how the pundits could miss the larger point.

The president is not, and should not be, responsible for our individual well-being. His job is to provide for national security, see that our laws are enforced, conduct foreign policy, appoint major government functionaries and influence a legislative agenda, including policies to promote the general economic well-being.

The president does not create jobs – business does that by taking risks in hopes of making a handsome profit. Pleading an individual family case of woe to the president is just downright silly.

Of course, TV news loves the personal drama of citizens publicly heaping their suffering on a president trying to strike a patrician pose, and they keep the camera focused on him to capture every twitch of empathy so the pundits can debate whether he was sufficiently contrite and reassuring.

This recurring American farce should have a spot on Broadway.

I don’t know how long presidents have been conducting the charade of promising to make our lives better, but in 1928 Herbert Hoover’s campaign slogan was, “A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage.” In 1980 Ronald Reagan struck a nerve when he asked in his televised debate with President Jimmy Carter, “Are you better off than you were four years ago?”

A rich irony closer to home is that President Obama made “hope” a major campaign promise, and now the faithful are losing theirs. I can understand children or the mentally weak falling for a politician’s offer of hope, but any thinking adult who looks to a politician, whether Republican or Democrat, as their source of hope is in serious need of spiritual counseling or a head examination.

Two major disappointments are elements of my meandering point.

First, the news media fails to remind the public that the president’s job has limitations, that the policies he enacts to nudge economic results in one direction or another sometimes take years to show their effect, and that we citizens are responsible for pursuing our own happiness without any government guarantees.

Second, we seem to be raising generations of citizens well-educated on rights, self-esteem, gender equality and tolerance of sexual preference but wholly ignorant of our country’s history and the capitalist system that has made America the envy of the world.

And so we have earned an electorate that foolishly looks to the federal government to take care of them and solve their problems.

These are the voters who elect administrations like the present one, an administration that doesn’t understand or appreciate our own capitalist system and has become downright anti-business in its rhetoric and policy.

I have heard much about the strength and resilience of America, but our system can be broken and I worry about the dangerous combination of an ignorant electorate and irresponsible media.

In 1787, as Benjamin Franklin left Independence Hall in Philadelphia after the final day of deliberation at the close of the Constitutional Convention, he was met by a gathered crowd. There was much controversy over what shape the new government should take, and the deliberations were held in secrecy.

A lady asked Mr. Franklin, “Well, Doctor, what have we got?”

Franklin replied, “A republic, ma’am, if you can keep it!”

The founding fathers knew very well the difference between a democracy and a republic, something I will save for a future column, and with great care they established a republic. Thomas Jefferson observed, “An enlightened citizenry is indispensable for the proper functioning of a republic.”

As you watch TV news and see more examples of citizens expecting the president to take care of them, ask yourself whether our citizenry is sufficiently enlightened on our form of government. Maybe you will join me in wondering, “Can we keep this republic?”

[Terry Garlock is a Certified Financial Planner. He lives in Peachtree City and writes columns occasionally for The Citizen. His email is tgarlock@mindspring.com.]

NotAlibtard
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Liberalism = Mental Disorder

As long as underachievers are allowed to be parasites on the backs of the achievers the Dems will have a solid base. If you are too lazy to work for what you need and want just vote Democrat, they will steal it for you. What ever happened to self reliance?? The founders of our country are rolling in their graves.

lion
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Kawfi cup

Heck, we liberals do not want to pay more taxes.

We want to go where the money is--tax the wealthy or sort of wealthy until they squeal and then tax them some more. And if you make more than $200,000 per year, Obama and we Democrats want more of your money. Better keep your hands on your bank account.

PTC Observer
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Lion - ?

Do you have no shame?

You are advocating theft of people's property because they are successful.

What must your children be like if you are teaching this philosophy?

If you really believe what you say here, you are evil.

lion
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PTC Observer

Maybe your post was not serious and you were just provoking me for fun.

But in case you were serious....

I advocate taxing the rich more because they are the ones with the money. I don't care if they were lucky and earned it, inherited it, or married the boss's daughter. The well off have prospered under the freedoms and benefits available to them in our great country and should be required to contribute to the public good accordingly.

I have taught my my children that liberalism is a proud American tradition and they should be glad to be part of it. They are good, upstanding citizens as I hoped they would be.

I really believe what I say. If you want to call me evil, that is your right. But to consider those that believe in the progressive income tax to be "evil", is a very extreme way to look at the world.

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They were lucky and earned it????

Those I know that are "well off" busted their butts, took big risks and some even created ventures that employee others. I don't call that lucky. The idea here is that those individuals are rewarded for their efforts.

If you want to talk about those on “easy street” read up on Senator Kerry and his yacht or Congressman Rangel with his unreported properties.

Chris P. Bacon
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Cyclist: Kerry's yacht

John Kerry married into inherited wealth. A healthy estate tax would have prevented this "easy street" scenario that appears to bother you so much.

Cyclist
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Bacon

It doesn't bother me in the least but I do find it interesting how he selectively choose Rhode Island rather than Mass. to originally moor his yacht. He would have saved a.......well a boat load on state taxes if the story was not leaked.

Gee wasn't it Lion who had concerns about those on "easy street" and not paying their "fair" share.

Georgia Patriot
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Don't Fool Yourself by thinking your belief is Liberalism

It is Marxism and yes, it is Evil. Basically what I hear you say is: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Your categories of how rich obtain their money are luck, inherited, or married the bosses daughter. What about people who started with nothing, worked hard long hours, took chances by investing in their ideas, etc? Would you take their money too? Marxism destroys the human spirit and will always fail. May God Bless America and give us strength. -GP

Chris P. Bacon
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Marxism? Evil?

GP, your attempt to conflate progressive taxation and estate taxation with Marxism and evil shows at best a shallow understanding of various economic theories.

Founding Father Thomas Paine wrote an impassioned plea for both progressive taxation and a permanent estate tax in America in 1782...36 years before Karl Marx was born. The title of his treatise was The Necessity of Taxation.

You're certainly welcome to disagree with an economic theory, but to label something as "evil" simply because you disagree with it shows a marked lack of maturity on your part.

I am of the opinion that you owe Lion an apology for your churlish remarks.

PTC Observer
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CPB - T. Paine

The idea of taking through force of law in the name “public good” goes back millennium to at least the Rome Empire or earlier. However the idea of theft through any means is wrong and immoral. Let’s see if we can put into concepts that even you can understand Crispy.

I assume you believe that it is wrong and immoral to steal someone’s purse by point of gun? Does it matter that through your theft you attempt to justify it by saying I am doing this for someone else? If you don’t have the right to steal directly from someone then how can you transfer this non-right by electing representatives to do it for you? It is morally wrong to steal another’s property through force no matter the means.

Quoting one or two of our Founding Fathers concerning Progressive Taxes does not make the act of taking and redistributing someone else's property morally or ethically right. The greatest proponent of government largess was Hamilton the father of our current nanny state and the philosophical pillar on which the Federal Reserve System stands.

The problem with your ideas Crispy and Lion is that they are formed on a dishonest and elitist premise. That the government has a higher moral authority than the teachings of God, “Thou shall not steal”. This is the same old song under different names, fascism, socialism, liberalism, progressivism, communism, and statist. All devised with the vision of having a world of equality through force of government, and the moment it is achieved we automatically become unequal, for men are not equal.

You and your kind are simply full of the sin of envy.

Courthouserules
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PTC Observer

I want to try and stay away from commenting to you and justifying it with religion. You seem to be stuck on everything that happens is to be measured by an interpretation in the Bible.

"Taking through force," that you mention is the only way one group of nuts can take something from another as far as land is concerned.
Europeans took all of the now called USA away from several tribes of Indians who came here from Africa through China some time ago.
I expect those various Indian tribes fought one another repeatedly for living and hunting land.

LT. George Washington, when he worked for the British, apparently saw an opportunity to form another country with a government in order to take advantage of the vast resources America had---he had explored and mapped much of the Appalachians and realized the vast potential.

So the end result was "taking by force" what we now have from England, Spain, France and others. This place was just too far from home for those countries to defend this "jungle."

There are other areas, such as The Philippines, Puerto Rico, Samoan Islands, Guantanamo, etc., that we "took by force!"

But you see Observer, we weren't "stealing," as defined by the Bible. My goodness the Bible is full of "stealing" lands in God's name!

More Bible people stole and killed more than we ever have since!

As to the distributing money to the poor I assume that is OK as long as it is voluntary? Actually, taxes are voluntary! You do not have to pay them.
There are various consequences if caught, but you do not have to pay them.

I take it that your premise that a government doesn't have a right to govern as Alexander Hamilton propounded since it is not Biblical?

Well, I for one think elected leaders with term limits governing us is somewhat more successful than was King Solomon, The Crusaders (twice), the Muslims (three or four times), The early Popes, and numerous other little thinkers who thought that ordinary people should have no say in what their government entails!

We should not elect a Huckabee, a Robertson, a Graham, a Long, a Haggard, a Swaggard, a Church, a Lady Church, an Elmer Gantry, a McPherson, a Bishop, a Cardinal, A Father, an Imam, a Faith Healer, an Atheist, an Agnostic, any irreligious person, a Mexican, someone from Africa, a speeder, a drunk, a wife beater, a divorcee, a non-payer of tithes (10% of it all), a person who does not pray to Mecca 5-6 times a day on a rug, anyone who doesn't constantly spin prayer wheels, anyone who doesn't use the KJV Bible (doesn't have to be in Greek), a bum, one with no substantial job, one who is not a lawyer or a businessman, preferably no women, who didn't attend Ivy League or war schools, and on and on.....

If ten people could select who should not be allowed to govern, I'm afraid the ten would be the only ones eligible to run!

Davids mom
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CHR

It appears that some only respond in depth to a 'receptive listener' in these discussions. Some confuse a discussion with a 'debate' - and there always must be a 'winner' and/or a 'loser'. Oh well - we'll see where we stand on November 2.

PTC Observer
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DM - That's correct

2010 and 2012

Courthouserules
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DM

No we won't see where we stand at the election!

People said the same thing just before President Obama was elected!
What with the deep recession, no one now is satisfied.

Once whomever wins this election as a majority in congress fails to solve the current problems immediately, we will be in the soup again. And they won't be able to do so.

We need 8-9 million jobs----they can not be generated in any fashion in a few years!

Now some are satisfied with speeches saying what they want to hear irregardless of our situation (Reagan)(Bush) but that is polarization, not success.

AtHomeGym
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CHR & DM

Uh oh, now you've given her the opening to tell you how "irregardless" is not to be used--use "irrespective" or just "regardless". You asked for it!

Chris P. Bacon
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Petey C Observer: Somalia Beckons!

I smile at economic "purists" such as Petey C. Observer and Georgia Pseudopatriot whose simplistic mindset cannot seem to move beyond "Taxes BAD!".

Taxes are a part of life in America, the whiny protests of the above two notwithstanding.

If you truly wish to live in an environment free from any and all taxation, may I suggest emigrating to that Libertarian Paradise, the country of Somalia.

Sure, the infrastructure is non-existent there, and chaos and "survival of the fittest" appear to be the twin principles upon which the country is built, but I am sure you'll fit right in there.

PTC Observer
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CPB - thanks

For the in-depth defense of your position. I would expect nothing more than this.

Chris P. Bacon
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Petey C, you're welcome

I try to keep my responses to you short and to the point. I know how much complex ideas and words with more than two syllables frustrate you.

Georgia Patriot
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Thank You Very Much!

cpb, for openly placing your ideas in print. Everyone in America should read your posts and make a choice. You keep trying to insult me by making the claim that I am somehow simple-minded by my short answers. But you know what, it is simple. Good versus Evil. God's Law's or man's ideas. Your longwinded responses can not justify your wrong ideas. Bloviation and obfuscation are not how to win an argument. You win an argument with ideas, priciples, and common sense. America needs to make some hard choices, thank you once again for making them clearer! -GP

Ninja Guy
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GP You Lose On Common Sense

GP, you lose on common sense, unless you are 16, then I will cut you some slack and just send you to your room without your ipod.

Courthouserules
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Yes, Bacon, I agree!

I would consider Somalia and the Pirates myself if I were able to travel that far.
Just think; if your money ever got scarce or you were robbed, you could simply take an oil tanker or two, get your share of the ransom and then rest from taxation and those pesky land grabbers, the State, as long as the money lasted.

Since I would alread have my M4 and my long sniper cartridges, my Thompson and several pistols and bags of cartridges, and can handle a small craft, I would be in demand.

If one needs a doctor, you simply go get one with a gun and force him to treat you free----thus, no forced federal insurance to pay!

There are no police to pay taxes for and since everyone is a criminal, it is the norm!

There is no power, water and sewer to pay for; one just steals what they need. No property is owned so the millage rate can't go up.

Welfare payments are unheard of, so some simply starve and are thrown into the sea on the next trip!
Some of the richer pirates do have slaves that they do not pay, but do feed somewhat adequately providing you like plain rice with small chunks of the meat found on the last oil ship locker.

Of course there is no Mayor or Congressman to fuss about or pay, and no one is about to invade your country and then support you better than you have ever had it!

They do have a TEA party Express, but it doesn't vote, just owns the most and biggest guns and bombs---hard to get into that club however.

I don't know if any of these dudes are married and have kids and go to church or not, but they aren't pestered with religious nuts and televangelists ever!

There are no laws so one wouldn't have to void any of those.
Sounds very suitable for some of us!

Ninja Guy
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Fry My Bacon In the Courthouse

I'm throwing in with Bacon and Courthouse on this one. Seems some of our fellow bloggers just finished Atlas Shrugged and are enamored with that philosophy. Marxism? Wasn't that system swept into the trash bin of history about 20 years ago? Come on, can't we use this scared forum to debate much more important matters--like Windows versus Mac? When you've put in more than about 35 years meaningful years, note 'meaningful', on planet earth, you come to notice that most of us human beings need some rules and means of enforcement. Sorry, to skip off so quick, but I need to satisfy my libertarian cravings my watching some Chinese prisoner beheadings live on the internet. After that, its on to baby chick stomping in Romania.

PTC Observer
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Ninja & CPB

Simpletons

Ninja Guy
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Simple Simon Stomped the Pieman

No, not simpletons at all. What I, and I think Crispy and others, am saying is that human interaction is way too complex to allow it to be governed by libertarianism. As for taxes, they seem to be needed as we keep electing folks that don't repeal them, and even raise them a lot of the time. We've had about 70+ years to repeal the income tax amendment to the constitution, just as we repealed prohibition. You would think that if 50.1% of the population believed as you do, that taxes = theft, we would have already elected enough congress people to repeal them darn taxes. Isn't happening at the federal level, the state level, or the municipal level, so most of the voting public must not believe as you--simple as that.

Chris P. Bacon
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Ninja: See Libertarians in action!

If you'd like to see a libertarian pack in action, check out this clip: LINK

Libertarians were outraged that a moveon.org supporter had shown up for the Rand Paul debate, so being brave white men that they are, they tackled her to the ground and stomped her head.

AtHomeGym
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Bacon & "Stomping"

I wouldn't call it a "stomping"--that's for shock & effect. And it appears to me as if they were "tussling" and both fell to the ground. Regardless, it's uncivil and uncalled for. I'm guessing charges will be filed and Paul should un-invite the perpetrators from his campaign.

Chris P. Bacon
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AtHomeGym and Stomping

Gym, I am honestly bewildered by your remarks above.

The thugs saw someone carrying a sign they disapproved of.

The three 50-something men wrestled a 23 year old woman to the ground.

They pinned her arms behind her back so her head was exposed and defenseless.

The one thug then proceeded to step on her head with such force that her head bounced off the goddamned sidewalk and sent her to the hospital where she was diagnosed with a concussion.

Gym, you and I have gone toe-to-toe before. I respect you as a man, even though I rarely agree with your opinions.

In this instance, though, I ask you to please reconsider your opinion: if this incident does not meet the textbook definition of "stomping", then what, in your opinion, DOES?

p.s. food for thought: if the roles were reversed, i.e. the assailants were black men and the victim was a tea party supporter, I'd still consider this a "stomping".

PTC Observer
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Stomping CPB?

you have no idea what a stomping is, I've been stomped and that's no stomping.

Either way it was wrong to use force like this, they should have restrained her and called the police.

alanf33
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OMG PTC O!

You know its 2010 in America. Only white, middle aged men are allowed to be stomped upon!

This MoveOn activist would cry Sexism right up until it suits her cause to be a woman; much like our Prez will talk about 'post-racial' America until he needs to shake up his base (move to the back of the bus, repubs).

But, to her credit I never heard her say, 'But I'm a girl.'

You wanna play in the big boy's games, sometimes it gets rough.

You folks need to lighten up or take to the streets. This armchair whining is kind of weak.

Observerofu
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Lauren Valle is a political activist who has done this multiple

times. This is not new she has accosted many "Conservative" candidates and she said she represented “Republicorp,” a fictitious company which is the brainchild of moveOn.org. She claimed that Republicorp was the merger between the Republican Party and corporate America.

She is a paid operative of George Soros. Sorry to disabuse you of the notion this was them danged teaparty extremist attacking a dissenter. If I lunged at say Pelosi I would think I too would be "assaulted".

Just a regular political dissenter? No I think not. She was stalking Paul and when he exited the vehicle she lunged at him.

"Lauren protested oil companies in Louisiana during the BP oil spill. (Telegraph)

Luaren Valle was charged with the felony charges of Unauthorized Entry of a Critical Infrastructure and Unauthorized Entry of an Inhabited Dwelling in May.

Lauren vandalized a ship in May."

...."Harbor police talk to Greenpeace activists Scott Cardiff (R) and Lauren Valle (L) who are hanging from the bridge painting with their messages on the ship Harvey Explorer at an industrial port at Port Fourchon, Louisiana, May 24, 2010. The activists used oil from the U.S. Gulf of Mexico spill to paint the message “Arctic Next?” on the bridge of the ship, which is scheduled to depart for Alaska to support drilling operations in July. (REUTERS/Greenpeace)""

Goodness knows the left are not without their sins.

SEIU thugs beat black teaparty member for handing out the Constitution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFeUhSlHiUQ

AtHomeGym
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Bacon & "Stomping"

My comments were based on what I saw in the video. I can't find anything about a concussion anywhere, in fact I read where she refused medical help and shortly after the incident was up walking and talking to the press. Soreness was all she reported the next day. Still, no excuse for that sort of action and the person responsible has been dismissed from the campaign. No one in their right mind wouod say that Paul supports such activity.

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The Pope, Republican and

The Pope, Republican and Democrat
The Pope took a couple of days off to visit the mountains of Alaska for some sight-seeing. He was cruising along the campground
in the Pope-mobile when there was a frantic commotion just at the edge of the woods.

A helpless Democrat, wearing sandals, shorts, a 'Save the Whales' hat, and a 'To Hell with Bush' T-shirt, was screaming while struggling frantically, thrashing around trying to free himself from the grasp of a 10 foot grizzly bear.

As the Pope watched horrified, a group of Republican loggers came racing up. One quickly fired a .44 magnum into the bear's chest. The other two reached up and pulled the bleeding, semiconscious Democrat from the bear's grasp, then using long clubs, the three loggers finished off the bear and two of them threw it onto the bed of their truck, while the third tenderly placed the injured Democrat in the back seat.

As they prepared to leave, the Pope summoned them to come over. "I give you my blessing for your brave actions!", he told them. "I heard there was a bitter hatred between Republican loggers and Democratic Environmental Activists, but now I've seen with my own eyes that this is not true."

As the Pope drove off, one of the loggers asked his buddies, "Who was that guy?"

"It was the Pope," another replied. "He's in direct contact with heaven and has access to all wisdom."

"Well," the logger said, "he may have access to all wisdom, but he sure don't know nothin' about bear huntin! Is the bait holding up, or do we need to go back to Massachusetts
and get another one?"

PTC Observer
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AHG - correct

"nobody in their right mind" is correct.

Courthouserules
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Bacon

Yes I saw the "head stomping" and pummeling of the woman by overweight thugs who hate ferriners! I have heard some of the TEAS and Libertarians talk when they are in a group---it is astonishing!
These people are real mericans and christeens!

We need 100 Rand Pauls' in Washington, badly.

Ninja Guy
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Head Stomping for Freedom!

Yes, I saw it and thought about posting the link here, but then decided it too low of a blow even for our esteemed forum. But, glad you did. I was going to comment on how it reminded me of the Brown Shirts.

Spyglass
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There are extremists everywhere..

in every facet of life. Anyone who thinks otherwise, well, they are thinking very well. On the other hand, anyone who thinks all these videos of extreme actions on all sides are truthful and in full context, well, they're nuts.

Courthouserules
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spy

There are extremists in all groups!
However ALL TEAS and Libertarians are extremists or else they wouldn't be there!

Some are just dumb looking for recognition, or in hopes of making money from it.

scribbler
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CHR - Deplorable
CHRS wrote:

However ALL TEAS and Libertarians are extremists or else they wouldn't be there!

You can say what you will -- "extremists?" - -INDEED

I wonder if you have ever been in a real face-to-face discussion with any of our local TEA folks...
--NAAAHHH!!!! .. sorry I asked.

Do you have any real conversations on the issues with our Libertarian friends??
--I seriously doubt it.

If you want to be heard -- think first -- then make sense when you contribute.

If you want to merely trade broadside insults--all bets are off.

Dont forget...
There are BLATHERING IDIOTS in every political demographic, as well.

They tend to self-disclose... more often than not.

Courthouserules
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scribbler: defending stompers

I said in one comment above that I HAD heard these people talk! And I have!

I find it hard to understand how you know that I didn't!

The biggest detriment to democracy is supporting fringe parties using only the most radical planks! These folks all vote republican anyway unless they are on the ballot as a third party.

Ross Perot destroyed them in one election!

That is why I am an Independent. I will not vote for anyone whom I think is unsuitable, no matter the party.

Just because republicans are teed-off with Bush and company, they try to cover that up with a third or fourth party who has a Chinaman's chance in Korea of winning!

Some of our best Presidents have been Democrats. Some Independents (IKE), (Truman),who pretended to be Republicans or Democrats.

Lincoln was no Republican!

Stop the "all or none stuff!"

scribbler
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CHRS - GET YOUR BRAKES CHECKED

I am glad there is some comic relief on this forum.

Tell us again please..??

Who made the "all or none" comments...??
Please clarify.... FYI - then you should apologize.

CHRS wrote:

However ALL TEAS and Libertarians are extremists or else they wouldn't be there!

As earlier stated...

scribbler wrote:

They tend to self disclose..."

I rest my case....

Have a nice day.

Georgia Patriot
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Atlas Shrugged

is a great book! Have you read it? I read it in high scdhool in the 60's. Over 40 years ago. Have a Blessed day. -GP

Courthouserules
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Darn, you are old!

Rand buddied with some doozies, didn't she?

Ninja Guy
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Atlas Shrugged Way Too Wordy

Yes, I have read it and lots more of Rand's work. Nathaniel Brandon's stuff, too. As well as FA Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard, David Friedman, Lew Rockwell, and Theodor Geisel. Yes, Rand's books are great reads, but way too long. You read that long bit about smoking? Come on now, 1100+ pages is way too long. Could have been done in about 350 or so.

Georgia Patriot
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If you like to Learn
PTC Observer
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GP - If you are directing this at NG or CPB

You're wasting your time, they will never read this gem.

PTC Observer
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NG

And what did you learn from reading these thinkers works? How would you counter even one argument they make?

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What I Learned at the Alter of Libertarianism

Good in theory, bad in practice.

PTC Observer
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NG - Specifically

Specifically what experience with Libertarian practice?

I can't think any specific Libertarin concepts that have been put into public practice.

Unfortunately for all of us, I can think of many collectivists concepts that have been put in practice.

Georgia Patriot
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Another good Book
Georgia Patriot
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Yes, in my America

Marxism is EVIL. Theft by any person or government is EVIL. No apology forthcoming, I stand by my comments. The truth can sometimes hurt but can not be churlish. Educate yourself: http://www.peacefreedomprosperity.com/?p=2188 -GP

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Then call me extreme Lion

If you believe that taking people's property by force of law in the name of "public good" is right, then you are in fact evil.

It simply doesn't matter how a person derives their honest wealth and the idea that you have a right to it because of "public good" is a socialist doctrine.

To claim that government policies and programs have a higher ethical principle is at best naive and at worst corrupt. To claim government policies that benefit small but powerful special interests at the expense of the rest of society are really "in the public interest" is an ancient political tactic. To claim that any policy is in "the public interest" unless it benefits every member of the public is logically and ethically dishonest.

The fact that we have a democracy and not a republic is the root of our problems.

All democracies evolve into a state where the net beneficiaries of government (those that receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes), outnumber and dominate the net taxpayers (those who pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits).

We are quickly approaching this point and your philosophy is "winning". The only problem Lion is that you won't have a country if you carry your philosophy to its logical conclusion. But of course that doesn’t matter to you as long as you get your "fair share" of someone else’s property.

In the end, dishonesty and theft never prevail. Unfortunately, you and your kind will pull us all down with you.

carbonunit52
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Extreme relativities
Quote:

If you believe that taking people's property by force of law in the name of "public good" is right, then you are in fact evil.

Several bloggers on here would agree, if you are talking about the misuse of eminent domain by local loyal Republicans. And then there is the perspective of the Native Americans.

PTC Observer
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Carbon - Let me

Let me try and follow your logic here. Since the Republicans use eminent domain and in the past Navtive Americans were "abused", then being evil is OK.

Does that capture your logic? If not, what is your point? That stealing has been going on for centuries, I don't think anyone would be surprised at that but it doesn't justify it.

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Carbon: Observer

Well we did finally out number the Indian Savages!
But mainly we took advantage of their tribalism as opposed to united.

We also had more guns.

Don't forget the Spanish in all this Indian stuff! And the Catholic Church.

Spanish Land Grants were very important and bribed many into genocide.

But they were conservatives!

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Value of Citizenship?

The Founders must be Spinning in their Graves!!! http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/24/states-weigh-letting-noncitiz...

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Non-Citizens Voting

From Georgia Patriot's link:

Abdirizak Daud, 40, moved to Minneapolis 18 years ago before coming to Portland in 2006. He hasn't been able to find a job. Some of his nine children have attended Portland schools, and he'd like to have a say in who's looking over the school system and the city, he said.

Let me guess.........a democrat.

Courthouserules
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cyclist

I'd say that he can't vote, wouldn't you?

However, it is likely that he utilizes some democratic assistance since he wouldn't have a prayer of getting anything from conservatives!

He is probably human in spite of his name! Bet those kids will be scientists!

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And those scientists

will be working for the government, because that is all that will be left!!! -GP

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Courthouse...

illegal’s have been voting for sometime. Google "B1 Bob" and read about the illegal’s that voting against him in his re-election bid back in the '80s.

It seems to me that giving non-citizens the right to vote cheapens the very reason of being a citizen.

Courthouserules
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GA Patriot

The "founders," wealthy Englishmen who were Deists--not Christians, did not write a perfect "Nation organization" chart!
It mainly kicked out the British Empire (after a war with them over a long supply line.)

They were traitors to the British, patriots to the new country they hoped to rule. And did a long time.

I saw no mention of Indian rights, slaves rights, women's rights, but a lot about landowners rights!

Maybe you think that is the way it should have stayed, but not us!

PTC Observer
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GP - The Founders & Constitution

put no restriction on the states concerning voting rights, these restrictions came later as the result of the Civil War and the abolition of slavery and were appropriate, see the 15th Amendment further extended by the 1964 Voting Rights Act. Then the 19th, 24th and 26th Amendments.

General state voting requirements are covered under the 10th Amendment.

With that said, the Founders are certainly turning in their graves; however, they are turning for numerous other reasons.

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Yes, you are correct, but...

All states require an individual to be a U.S. citizen in order to vote in state or federal elections. I still say they are spinning. -GP

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There has never been

A more anti-business government that the one we have now. Their policies are so destructive the question has to be asked, are they that out of touch or is it intentional? Vore for Freedom Nov 2nd. -GP

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"Anti Business", Georgia Patriot?

I'm curious as to why you believe that the Obama administration is "anti-Business".

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Speaking as a Business Owner for over 35 years

and as member of the US Chamber of commerce, National Federation of Independent Business and the BBB, I will give you a few brief examples: Obama's blend of Keynesian economics/Marxism is the problem. "Spreading the wealth around" and taxing the "rich" are psychologically damaging the business environment. By letting the Bush tax cuts expire he shows a lack of knowlege of how job creation (employment) works. By drastically expanding government thru czars and regulations he shows further lack. By attempting to take away the secret ballot (thru card check), he shows loyalty (payback?) to Unions insted of business. By attacking the US Chamber of Commerce he shows further contempt. Basically in a nutshell all of the rules and regulations are creating an evironment which makes the United States a less attractive place to invest and create jobs than places in Europe, Asia, etc. Jobs are leaving. Those that have the financial ability are leaving or retiring. God Bless America, Pray, we need a Miracle. -GP

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GA Patriot

You belong to all of the worst organizations that make it necessary for all those who don't to fend for themselves!
Keynesian theories (all are theories) is useful when needed only, it is now needed to a small degree--even less than salvaging the banks and autos and AIGs! (All members same as you).

BUSH HAD HIS SO-CALLED TAX CUTS FOR SEVERAL YEARS----LOOK WHAT IT GOT US!!
Why on earth do you want to steal from the revenue (Corporate and rich) as he did, again?
Is there some advantage to business in that I don't know about?
I can assure you of this: It can not and will not create EIGHT MILLION jobs, even in ten years!

Only Keynesian can hope to do that in five.

Anyway, it is not the President's job to create jobs....that is your job!
Let him stop useless wars, promote trade, propose budgets for congress approval, and appoint officials!

As to his suggested approval of unions (President) he cares little for so few people anymore who have strong unions! I could care less if the teachers have unions. The sweepers and clean up ladies need one!

I do suggest that you take your "financial ability," and leave us an go someplace where maybe you can say God Bless America for the money, but I REALLY like Swiss Banks, and banking Islands off Mexico's south.

I can have numerous servants there very cheaply.

Georgia Patriot
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Eventually You Run out of Other Peoples Money!!!

Government Can Not Save Us!!! Personally I have had to lay off many workers. Wake up. The private sector which is under attack creates JOBS!!! Apparently you would have everyone work for the government. Here is a simple analogy for understanding why the socialist system we've had since 1933 does not work:
There are two people, each on a hospital gurney. Person #2 can not produce his own blood, so from time to time blood has been taken from person #1 and given to him. At first, this is fine and there is no problem since the amounts required are minimal. Yet, over time the amounts taken from #1 become greater and greater. Person #1 soon has more blood taken from him than his body can replace. He gets ill, his organs start shutting down, and before too long he dies.

The blood, of course, is money. Person #2 is the government which does not produce "value" (i.e., profit, wealth). Person #1 is the private sector, which, if left unmolested, can produce more than ample amounts of profit. The problem we now face, with our corporate taxes (of 35%) the second highest in the world, is that body #1 is beyond the point where it can give anymore blood. In fact, it is hemorrhaging and on the verge of death - as evidenced by the recent financial collapse. The crises we now face are not problems of capitalism, but the inherent problem with socialism, i.e. the growth of government and its interference in markets. Still, the mass of ignorant Americans are being led to believe that this is a crisis of capitalism. It is not.

Courthouserules
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Patriot

You say that the "private sector" is under attack." That is the reason we hove 8-9 million less jobs, I assume?

Were they "under attack" during the 2000s? No, they were allowed to expand mercilessly on credit--even making up products to sell on credit!

Great, huge, unbelievable amounts were robbed from ignorant believing people, which has all, but what they were able to store away, reduced the value of all real estate and savings, forever.

The same crap was done by Reagan who overspent by trillions. The Defense Industrial Complex ate all that.

Independent voters are all that can now be trusted.

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All WEALTH

is created by the private sector, not government. This reminds me of the boy cutting open the belly of the goose to find out where the golden eggs were coming from. -GP

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CHR

November 2 will tell the story.

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Eventually it will effect all

It looks like they will be coming after the Home Mortgage deduction next http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230435410457556864388933714... what gets me is the psycological use of verbage/propaganda, you keeping more of the money you have earned is considered "lost revenue" for them. We are going to be hit by estate taxes http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-07-21-estatetax21_CV_N.htm , and the alternate minimum tax and your health insurance being taxed as income will suprise even more people: http://sroblog.com/2010/08/20/2011-taxes-increases-a-summary-must-read-mb/ It aint pretty folks. Eventually it will hit home with everyone. -GP

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Expiration of temp. tax cuts ≠ tax increase

The ill-advised Bush tax cuts were always temporary in nature.

I don't see how anyone could honestly refer to the expiration of a temporary tax cut as a "tax increase".

Here's a real-world example:
Each year the Coca-cola company cuts the prices of its soft drink products by as much as 50% over the Labor Day weekends.

Most people would simply enjoy the temporary price reductions. A few dyspeptic people, however, would choose to denigrate the Coca-cola folks for their massive price increases in their products once the sale was over. Both sides are technically correct.

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Krispy

No one is stopping you and all of your liberal bed-wetting friends from paying more taxes. If you feel that strongly about it - go ahead. The government will take it - all you have to do is send them a check.

If you feel that strongly about it, what's stopping you? (or are you full of nothing but hot air and empty promises like all liberals?)

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Joke Awfi

Silly Joe, nobody likes paying higher taxes. Unfortunately, there's this thing called "responsibility" which I realize is a foreign concept to America-hating Jesus-renouncing Military-spitting pseudoconservatives such as yourself.

I've got no problem whatsoever with letting all the ill-advised Bush tax cuts expire. Letting those tax cuts expire is an important first step towards fiscal responsibility.

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The Patient has lost a lot of Blood

and is on life support. The Doctor rushes into the ER and says "quick nurse, get me a syringe, I need to take out more blood". Does this make sense to you? Well, it makes about as much sense as raising/increasing taxes in this economy. You can argue terms/semantics, as a matter of fact you can call the expiration of tax cuts anything you want, the fact is it will still hurt this economy. -GP

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Nah...Patriot

The conservatives will win enough seats along with the nutty TEAS to stop such foolishness.
I'll bet they even put 8 million to work in their two years that President Obama couldn't do!

Of course they can't give them jobs paid for with taxes now can they?

But where will they work? In the Health field? (can't afford that) In Manufacturing? (there are no factories) In Banks? (they are broke--local ones anyway)
In Restaurants? (can't afford them) In call centers? (no money there) In Retail? (selling what extra) Pilots? (takes too long to train) Doctors? (that is going to happen anyway)

I know, they will cut the budget ACROSS THE BOARD 20%! (mostly in welfare, social security, military (can't do that), aid to Georgia and other states (no way Hosea), I just don't know where they are going to get that much!!!!

Then 5 million more will be looking for a job, won't they?

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You are sadly correct

After the progressive/socialists/marxist's destroy free enterprise, there will not be anywhere to work. Where will all the government funding come from then? Tax the rich more? There won't be any rich to tax. Raise the tax on middle class? There won't be a middle class. We have not learned from history. Socialism always fails, but sometimes only after totally destroying free enterprise. -GP

lion
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Georgia patriot

I assume you see President Obama as the leader of those progressives/socialists/marxists (your label looks like something off of Glenn Beck's blackboard) determined to destroy "free enterprise" a.k.a. corporate control of America.

In his attempt to destroy "free enterprise" Obama has bailed out and saved the American auto industry, bailed out and saved the American banking industry, provided aid to small businesses, and enacted health insurance reform which will ultimately relieve businesses from the burden of being health care insurers.

Only the nutty right wing could see Obama as some type of dangerous socialist.

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GP, Beck & Socialist

I always like that somehow Clinton, the gov of a somewhat conservative state (the state voted for a Rep. gov, '66, before Nixon's Southern Strategy)& the president that left office w/ a surplus is a leftist. Somehow being "progressive" on social issues negates any fisical responsibility. The party of TR, Winthrop & Nelson Rockefeller & all the other "progressives" is no more.

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WE will NEVER agree

You see bailing out and saving, I see government takeover of the private sector. Unions getting ownership before the real owners (preferred stockholders). You will have to enlighten me on the aid Obama provided to small business, did your company receive some of that? Did that come from his private stash, I must have missed that one. As far as health care, do you know of any country with government health care that even comes close to our private system in quality and availability? Name one. With this unconstitutional healthcare takeover, insurance companies will cease to write policies and government/single payer will have to come to the resue. Our great quality healthcare will then be destroyed. And yes he is, as all other socialists are, very dangerous. -GP

Courthouserules
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Patriot

Am I to understand that if republicans were in charge all of the time we wouldn't have our current problems?

Then by all means let us put them in and see!

If only Reagan hadn't taught them how to borrow money and NOT raise taxes, George wouldn't have known how! He even added a reduction in income to the government thinking it would develop immeasurable progress---it didn't.

Georgia Patriot
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Don't try to paint me

as a big government, Bush republican, I am not. I am not ashamed of my beleifs, so here are a few: I am a Libertarian leaning Conservative, in case you really feel the need to classify me. I believe Honesty and Integrity should be prerequisites for any elected offical. I support the Fairtax. I am pro-life Christian. I believe in a pro-business small responsible government with balanced budgets . Now tell me what you believe in. -GP

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CHR$

Anyway, it is not the President's job to create jobs

Has anyone told Obama, Pelosi and Reid of this?

Georgia Patriot
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Personally

I will be working on a shovel ready stimulas job http://sadhillnews.com/2010/10/13/the-shovel-ready-jobs-lie-in-spades OOPS looks like that was another lie. Wonder how all the spending will be paid for. Remember, government can not create wealth, only spend money it taxes(robs) or just print it, but there are consequences to that. -GP

Courthouserules
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Patriot: "Sad Hill News"

I suspect that Limbaugh finances this outfit!
They are the ones from which you got the information.

More crap: President Obama is not Christian; he is not a citizen; he is a reform Socialist; he lies; and of course "shovel ready" is no good for the USA.

The personnel behind this sad little publication do not list themselves at all. They just ask for donations.

If anything will bring this country down it is the radical radio and such publications as Sad Hill and ignorant people.

We still have the flat-earthers; the nobody went to the moonies; all Muslims are terrorist people; Congregationalists--who make their own rules as necessary; bigots, racists, televangelists; hypocrites; born ignorants; polarized groups; and those who don't care what might be reasonable!

EVERY time religion of any sort is involved or runs a government it has severe troubles---has for centuries.
Christians and Muslims have been at it since 1000 at least.

Hindus and such don't care what we do as we are heathens.

Georgia Patriot
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Attack the Publication? OK, here it is from

the lame street media: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20019468-503544.html After many years of experience I now judge people by their friends/actions/policies and not so much by their words. Obama has surrounded himself with radicals and marxist's and his policies seem to be based on worldwide redistribution of wealth. This book explains a lot http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Obamas-Rage-Dinesh-DSouza/dp/1596986255 -GP

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Meet the Press

On Meet the Press, White House Secretary Robert Gibbs said, "there's an excitment about what this President is trying to do."

Fred Thompson, former U.S. Senator: "Yeah, just like there is excitment when someone drives the wrong way down a one-way street." Which made me think.....November 2nd, Pit Maneuver!!! -GP

Courthouserules
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GA Patriot

Fred Thompson is now selling reverse mortgages to old people who can't eat and pay for medicine! (So is Fonzie).

They will give their kid's heritage to the financial institutions who pay Fred!
He is is real DUDE, Fred is. Kinda Reagan-est in speech, but a little fuzzy mind just like his mentor! "tear down that wall," does anyone think the Russians even heard that? They were glad to get rid of a devastated East Germany---ruining West Germany!

Reagan wasn't Moses, coming down from the mountain with tablets! He was a bought man-=-=--General Electric.

Davids mom
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CHR

It's easier to call you 'crazy' and/or 'nuts' - than to acknowledge that there is so much truth in what you say about the current controversy regarding our politics. The excitement that Fred Thomas generated was null and void. No more LAW AND ORDER for him! Reagan was a charming 'B' actor who was used by the Republican Party. He never got over being upstaged by Jane Wyman - an Oscar winning actress. . .and he was fortunate enough to marry Nancy Reagan - who protected him fiercely.

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GP & Teabaggers & Answers

They are musket toting patriots come back to life to reclaim the republic. Cloaked in the Constitution but if you give an example of where they are misguided; they attack the author. They find a patron saint in Ayn Rand who was an intellectual elitist and would have scoffed at their populist movement. Most are against a society of Shiria law but want to impose their own theocracy. They want “character” in candidates but overlook the failing of their own. We must be a Christian nation because the Constitution does not provide for a separation of church & state. They want to ride their motorcycles w/out a helmet & no way can you make ME have health insurance. Nevermind when they crack their skull… they will take care of that $1 mil bill. It’s all a leaderless hodge-podge & how dare you be against “their” Constitution, their religion & apple pie. I just want to know, Are O’Donnell & Palin riding their brooms on Saturday or Halloween?