One more time for Mr. Lincoln and history

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Mr. Parker didn’t get the point of my column about Memorial Day and Abraham Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address two weeks ago, so I’ll repeat the point here in fewer words: If you want to know the truth, you often must probe well below the surface veneer of popular history.

I have no ax to grind on Abraham Lincoln, and with half of my roots planted firmly in the South and the other half in the North, I’m not inclined to argue the Civil War all over again. Nevertheless, I often try to prompt readers to think outside the box, and the deification of Lincoln is such a fine example of mangled history that I will use him again to illustrate.

We who lived through it will never forget Martin Luther King’s thrilling “I have a dream!” speech on Aug. 28, 1963, delivered from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., before a crowd of a quarter million agitating for civil rights reform.

The venue was appropriate since black Americans celebrate Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation as if this benevolent president rushed to rescue slaves. If they took the time to look more closely they would find the truth is complex and has many layers of mud on its shoes.

Lincoln supported the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court and the courts of every Northern state, requiring citizens and the federal government to return runaway slaves (property) to their owners with stiff fines and sentences for anyone concealing runaways or otherwise failing to comply with the law.

Lincoln defended slaveowner rights to own their “property,” saying, “... when they remind us of their constitutional rights, I acknowledge them, not grudgingly but fully and fairly, and I would give them any legislation for the reclaiming of their fugitives.”

As territories fought their way to become new states, they also became battlegrounds between pro-slavery and abolitionist factions. Lincoln said this in Peoria, Ill., on Oct. 16, 1854: “Whether slavery shall go into Nebraska, or other new territories, is not a matter of exclusive concern to the people who may go there. The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these territories. We want them for the homes of free white people. This they cannot be, to any considerable extent, if slavery shall be planted with them. Slave states are the places for poor white people to move from ... New free states are the places for poor [white] people to go and better their condition.”

In 1860, Lincoln had been elected president. In his inaugural speech he said, “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”

As the Civil War erupted in 1861, Lincoln tried to hold the Union together without doing anything at all with the slavery issue for one simple reason; abolition was quite unpopular and for Lincoln it would be political suicide.

Even though slavery was minimal in Northern states, the thought of abolition of slavery and living together with blacks as equals was as repugnant to Lincoln as to most whites, and their poor treatment of free blacks reflected that disdain.

Lincoln said, “Free them, and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this ... We cannot, then, make them equals.” That didn’t make Lincoln evil so much as a product of his times.

Even before conceiving his emancipation ideas, Lincoln pondered how the country would adjust to the “race problem” of free blacks and whites, and he became committed to the notion of “colonization,” meaning move all former slaves out of the U.S. “Send them to Liberia, to their own native land,” he said.

Before slavery ended, Lincoln met with free black leaders in the White House, urging them to organize a colonization movement back to Africa. Before then, in his Cooper Union speech on Feb. 27, 1860, he spoke in favor of peaceful “deportation” of blacks and that “their places be ... filled up by free white laborers.”

Intending to send every black person in the U.S. to Africa, Haiti or Central America, he reiterated his desire to Congress on Dec. 1, 1862, in a message including: “I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I strongly favor colonization.”

Congress ended slavery in the District of Columbia in 1862, providing $600,000 as a first payment of expenses to send freed slaves back to Africa. President Lincoln appointed James Mitchell, a pro-colonization enthusiast, to oversee the project and urged his cabinet members to help. The plan failed but Lincoln remained committed to colonization to solve the “race problem.”

William Lloyd Garrison, pre-eminent abolitionist, despised Lincoln for his colonization policies and remarked that Lincoln “... had not a drop of antislavery blood in his veins.”

As the Civil War raged, Lincoln conceived an executive order for emancipation of slaves as a military strategy to weaken the enemy, not as a measure of moral principle.

In July 1862 he informed his cabinet of the emancipation proclamation idea, saying he would hold the proclamation until a strong Union battle victory provided the right time to make the announcement most effective. He pressured his generals accordingly.

In an Aug. 22, 1862, letter to Horace Greeley, Lincoln wrote, “If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that ...“

Greeley didn’t know it but Lincoln had already drafted the Emancipation Proclamation at the time of his letter.

Lincoln’s frustrating wait ended on Sept. 17, 1862, when Union forces repelled Confederate invaders at the Battle of Antietam in Maryland, aka Battle of Sharpsburg. Five days later Lincoln assembled his cabinet to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. It was to become effective on Jan. 1, 1863, but would be rescinded if before that date the Southern states would discontinue their fight to secede.

The fight continued and the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect. Lincoln wrote to Major General John McClernand, “After the commencement of hostilities I struggled nearly a year and a half to get along without touching the ‘institution’ [of slavery]; and when finally I conditionally determined to touch it, I gave a hundred days fair notice of my purpose, to all the States and people, within which time they could have turned it wholly aside, by simply again becoming good citizens of the United States. They chose to disregard it, and I made the peremptory proclamation on what appeared to me to be a military necessity. And being made, it must stand.”

Lincoln’s Emancipation was not only conditional, it didn’t apply to the slaves in Union slave states of Maryland, Delaware, Missouri and Kentucky or to any other slaves in Northern states. It also did not apply in Tennessee and the New Orleans area where Union forces were already in control.

William H. Seward, Secretary of State, observed, “We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free.”

The Proclamation had no immediate effect, but over time it did allow nearly 200,000 freed black slaves to enlist in the Union Army, and raised expectations of freedom among slaves as word spread.

Lincoln did eventually champion the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution prohibiting slavery in the U.S., and he deserves credit for that, though he waited until public opinion had shifted sufficiently to squeeze the bill through Congress.

In all, Lincoln gets far too much credit for ending slavery. The courageous people deserving that credit were the abolitionist activists, swimming upstream against popular opinion of a white population with an aversion to the idea of living together with free blacks as equals.

Far too many American blacks adore Lincoln without knowing the real history. One who does know is Ebony magazine’s former editor, Lerone Bennett, Jr. He said, “On at least fourteen occasions between 1854 and 1860, Lincoln said unambiguously that he believed the Negro race was inferior to the White race.”

It may not be pretty, but at least it is real, and that is the way history should be consumed and remembered.

[Terry Garlock of Peachtree City occasionally contributes a column to The Citizen.]

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Mr. Garlock - All

Quite true and your points about martyrdom equally true. Lincoln was hated by many for very good reasons, even to this day he remains in my mind a very evil person. MLK however is a different case, even though you may disagree with his position on the Vietnam war, I think all in all his motives were "pure". His socialist leanings cannot be denied. His fight for equal treatment based on the Constitution was correct and just. We are a better nation because of his unwavering courage. Most importantly, he was not a politician seeking power for himself but a man seeking equal treatment for his people. He did not get rich off our labor. I had the honor of meeting Mrs. King long after his death and there was no more kind, dignified or noble woman.

Yes David's Mom, I am almost home, flying at 35,000 from NYC, just to read your response when I get back home.

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PTCO
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just to read your response when I get back home.

LOL! Stay safe. No rush on response.

Davids mom
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Archibald Carey and MLK's 'Dream Speech"

In 1963 in front of the Lincoln Memorial, the audience appeared not to be getting the message – and it’s reported that Mahalia Jackson whispered to MLK – tell them about the ‘dream’. Archibald Carey was highly respected in the ‘black community’ . Many who were in attendance at the Republican event where Judge Carey gave his speech remembered it – and we’re so glad that MLK also remembered it.

This is the oratory that preceded the “I Have A Dream Speech”

From MLK's Speech
You know, several years ago, I was in New York City autographing the first book that I had written. And while sitting there autographing books, a demented black woman came up. The only question I heard from her was, "Are you Martin Luther King?"

And I was looking down writing, and I said yes. And the next minute I felt something beating on my chest. Before I knew it I had been stabbed by this demented woman. I was rushed to Harlem Hospital. It was a dark Saturday afternoon. And that blade had gone through, and the X-rays revealed that the tip of the blade was on the edge of my aorta, the main artery. And once that's punctured, you drown in your own blood—that's the end of you.

And I want to say tonight, I want to say that I am happy that I didn't sneeze. Because if I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been around here in 1960, when students all over the South started sitting-in at lunch counters. And I knew that as they were sitting in, they were really standing up for the best in the American dream. And taking the whole nation back to those great wells of democracy which were dug deep by the Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been around in 1962, when Negroes in Albany, Georgia, decided to straighten their backs up. And whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been here in 1963, when the black people of Birmingham, Alabama, aroused the conscience of this nation, and brought into being the Civil Rights Bill. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have had a chance later that year, in August, to try to tell America about a dream that I had had. If I had sneezed, I wouldn't have been down in Selma, Alabama, been in Memphis to see the community rally around those brothers and sisters who are suffering. I'm so happy that I didn't sneeze.

After the 'nudge' from Mahalia Jackson - MLK repeated phrases from Archibald Carey's speech. I never heard that the Rev. Carey took legal action against using 'his' words. Both men, believing in spiritual guidance, probably gave credit to an 'angel message'. Those of us who knew Rev. Carey (a prominent Judge in Chicago) never heard him speak against MLK. MLK supported candidates who supported Civil Rights - regardless of political party.

Mr. Garlock's comments on 'flawed' humans are appreciated.

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Mr Garlock

Told the truth without the hateful rhetoric that those who wish to divide this country - or are too insecure to realize that clinging to the so-called superior white skin theory is out! All of the enemies of the US tried to use American racist practices to divide this diverse country. Mr. Garlock is a conservative, but certainly not a racist. The truth about the political strategies used by Abraham Lincoln does not diminish his accomplishments.

Some here call any attempt at equality - communist. Sad

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_Research_and_Education_Center

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Terry - MLK

A lot of us who blog here lived through those times and remember Martin Luther King’s “I have a dream!” speech on Aug. 28, 1963, delivered from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. The only problem was/is is that is that the speech was plagiarized.

My personal favorite news piece about MLK was the photo taken Sept. 2, 1957 of King attending the Highlander Folk School which was the Communist Party training camp at Monteagle, Tennessee.

Few people realize that Al Gore's daddy (Al Gore Sr.) , representing Tennessee as a U.S. Representative and Senator, was the closest thing to an elected communist this country has ever seen.

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MajorMike, I don't know anything about MLK plagarizing . . .

. . . but I wouldn't be shocked. He is another example of being diefied when he was just a man with strengths and weaknesses. I haven't studied his life but have heard stories about his womanizing. I'd have a hard time looking down my nose on that since it is damn foolish of our society to expect leaders to be choirboys instead of strong men with raging hormones. But I digress.

Some years ago I had pics of two men on my wall I admired, John Steinbeck and MLK. I lived in the south when he was killed and surrounded by people who thought he got what he deserved, I always thought he was a man who had the courage of his convictions, and he was right on the racial issues. I never would have agreed with anything he said about the Vietnam War.

But that's the rub, isn't it? Like children we expect historical figures to be one-dimensional instead of the real mix of virtues and flaws that we all are. Same goes for military "heroes." I know a lot of guys (many right here in PTC) with a lot of decorations for valor, but that doesn't mean they are saints. All it means is, assuming they actually deserved the decoration for that event, they did something worthy of notice and national gratitude on one particular day. They still might turn out to be a SOB. I include myself in that.

Terry Garlock

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Terry Garlock - some references

Oddly enough, what these references don't show is that the “I have a dream!” speech was plagiarized before MLK plagiarized it.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/mlk.htm#.UcOyPOdvM6w

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2008/01/bummer-martin-luther-king-jr-sto...

http://www.garynorth.com/public/335print.cfm

It never ceases to amaze me how much of our written history, what we learned in school if you will, is ....... bogus.

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Major Mike - revelations? Not hardly

Fortunately, many of us attended schools that exposed us to all theories and 'editions' of history. We had the opportunity to do our own research - and have discussions on 'truth', facts and theories. One 'truth' that came out of this exposure was the truth that often history is HIS STORY. There are many, many stories. We were taught to take the 'good' from the 'stories', and learn not to repeat the 'bad' - to assure the progress of mankind. Educated men and women learn from history. . .and feel free to question it.

Abraham Lincoln led a divided country back to some sense of 'unity'. Martin Luther King, Jr. stopped a more violent and bloody confrontation between Americans of different races by leading a peaceful change from segregation to inclusion under the Constitution. The law changed. It is evident that for some, it took some time for hearts to change.

We are still on the pathway to 'trust'. Your 'references' are not new or 'revelations' - only to those who did not have an education that allowed the freedom to question. Thanks for sharing.

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...and herein lies the problem.
Davids mom wrote:

We were taught to take the 'good' from the 'stories', and learn not to repeat the 'bad' - to assure the progress of mankind.

When our children are taught an incomplete history of an event or a person then what you get is a distorted view of that event or person FOREVER. When the truth comes out decades later those that present the ACTUAL FACTS are called liars and summarily dismissed.

But then again, selecting what history to teach has always been the Governments why of doing it so....

Why don't we take a lesson FROM history and learn to stop telling only one side/viewpoint of history and actually teach it warts in all...

Where does selective teaching lead us... well HISTORY has already taught us this lesson too.

""The life of a German child changed dramatically during the 1920’s and 30’s, especially for those who were to no longer be regarded as German (but that’s a whole different topic). They were forcefully united under the swastika by the Nazi’s, they were brainwashed into complete loyalty to the Nazi’s through what they were taught by the schools and the Nazi’s education system. The system was extremely effective and managed to gain the complete loyalty and support of the German youth by the 1930’s as anyone who didn’t was dealt with severely."

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The teaching of history

Why was the teaching of history so different in some Red States than in some Blue States? Why were some teachers prevented from allowing their students to ask questions and discuss different 'stories' than found in state approved textbooks? Why did some Christian schools teach that the sitting next to a child of a different race was bad - when Jesus Christ and his disciples sat amongst all mankind?

Quote:

Why don't we take a lesson FROM history and learn to stop telling only one side/viewpoint of history and actually teach it warts in all..

I agree with this - except please expose the learner to all viewpoints - and don't prejudge the 'warts'. Our children today are exposed to events as they happen - and see how the media, the church, their parents attempt to guide them. (This is not always a bad thing - if the church and parents allow the child to question) Our viewpoints are always governed by our experiences and perspectives - how the 'historical event' affected us and ours. It was difficult, but enlightening, to look at a situation from another point of view than our own. This truly brought understanding during the 50's and 60's and much easier to confront ugly situations with 'love'. For understanding promotes love - and remembering the lesson of 'Do Unto Others" promotes love and understanding.

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Dm on this we agree....

... We do need to teach ALL viewpoints... But this will never happen in a Liberal controlled education system..

Want an example.. Just go to the debate over Creationism vs. Darwinism.

Why can't we let the students decide. We can teach Islam and have the Koran in School but to learn Christianity, oh the horrors.

Heck we can't even teach that Columbus was a great explorer no he is a Terrorist.. We can't even agree on the Civil War... It was not about Slavery...BUT...that has become the OFFICIAL version so...

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SL -
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... We do need to teach ALL viewpoints... But this will never happen in a Liberal controlled education system..

My education was in public/state controlled high school and university in the acknowledged LIBERAL state of California. . . .as well as some educational institutions outside of our country.

I had an excellent teacher for The Bible as Literature which allowed us to examine Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. . .and the concept of God as expressed in the comparative writings of these religions. I'm grateful that I grew up in a time and space that allowed me to research and discuss beyond the official version. And we agree - we should not be afraid of the 'truth'. With all of this 'liberal' exposure - I am not a communist, a hater, or anti- religion. My spiritual education makes me a believer in 'God'; my home education makes me a believer in 'Love'; my life experience makes me know that there is nothing 'new' under the sun - and mankind will be better off if he/she only takes time to learn and continue to progress from history. It makes little sense to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

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A thought! Plagiarism
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My spiritual education makes me a believer in 'God'; my home education makes me a believer in 'Love'; my life experience makes me know that there is nothing 'new' under the sun - and mankind will be better off if he/she only takes time to learn and continue to progress from history. It makes little sense to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

I know I have read a similar 'piece' somewhere with a similar cadence - but I don't remember exactly where. To say that Judge Carey and MLK plagiarized the song My Country Tis of Thee - is a little far-fetched!! Just sharing a thought!

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DM I too had much the same experience...

... we are somewhat older then those today.

In today's new World our education would not be allowed..

Sad isn't.

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SL -sad

and dangerous. However I'm beginning to hear and see in Georgia and in many other states teachers and students who are not afraid to go beyond the official 'story' of history - and with the aid of technology and iPads - the students can do research without someone telling their parents what books they are reading!! In California, this 'freedom' you and I experienced is still being 'allowed'in the field of history {now math is another subject!!}. (And the acceptance of the 'liberal' thought of the UC system and the 'conservative' thought of Stanford.) It is fascinating and enlightening when these two 'thoughts' get together in the California sunshine! There are still 'private' schools here in some areas of Georgia that are teaching fear and hate and the false superiority of white skin. There are MORE private schools in Georgia that are integrated!! Hence my hope that the generation of my grandchildren will be involved in more substantive issues than American racism.

Yes Mytimite - I inserted the 'race' issue again. Gosh, you can't read the newspaper, listen to TV, without this being an issue in this country, i.e. immigration; affirmative action; housing, crime, voting rights, justice, jobs; etc., etc., etc. - the current resident of the White House. Right? Shouldn't be - but is!

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DM, as long as your main purpose is to bring racism into every

dialogue I see little chance for your grandchildren to "be involved in more substantive issues than American racism." I am sure there are some schools that, as you state, promote white supremacy just as their are many black organizations/schools that promote black supremacy. I wonder what would happen if there was a White Legislative group or White Miss America, etc. But, of course, there is a necessity for those "black" organizations because there was slavery and the blacks were held down. Never mind that slavery was abolished many years ago and that schools have been integrated for many years, and admissions to colleges, etc have been skewed towards minorities, even if it is to their detriment. There will always be those on both sides of the issue (black and white) who will fight integration and more and more it seems that some blacks are going backwards and wanting 'separate but equal' rather than integration. I also have not heard of one black politician/leader who has been caught with their hand in the till or in any wrong doing who does not immediately blame it on 'whitey' attacking and trying to discredit them because they are black. That is so much easier than standing tall and taking the blame for what has been done, but it does provide a good smoke screen.

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Mytimite
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But, of course, there is a necessity for those "black" organizations because there was slavery and the blacks were held down

Here I thought you were closer to my age! Black organizations did not exist 'because of slavery' but because of segregation and Jim Crow! I was a teenager when blacks were first allowed to enter the Miss America contest. It was a 'white' contest. No blacks allowed! Where were you? (Of course those in the 'black' community laughed because we knew that one of the 'prime' presenters was 'black' - and he was proud of it! ) He worked and lived as a 'white' man - but joined friends and family for holidays. No one has to do that today. You are so uninformed - that it is a waste of time to even discuss the reality of segregation in these United States with the likes of you. Please keep posting. It is important for others to see the ignorance that still exists in this country about the actual history and effect of segregation, Jim Crow and racism. Thanks.

Note: If you don't know anything about racism - get informed before you post.

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DM, evidently you are too obtuse to recognize facetiousness when

you see it. My point was that you always manage to refer everything back to slavery. I am talking about the black organizations that exist today not during segregation and Jim Crow days. Evidently the prime presenter at the Miss America contest was not as proud of being black as you think if he chose to live as a white man. I know you will say it is because he was able to 'better' himself by doing so. Was he a family member of yours also? Believe me I am not uninformed. What i find a waste of time is your continual harping back to racism and then pulling back to put a different spin on it. The ignorance comes from those who choose to live in the past rather than learn from it and move on. I will match my knowledge of actual history to yours any time. I am aware of the atrocities of the past and know they should not be forgotten, but as I have said before; until people are willing to move on, stand on their own two feet and accomplishments, then we are never going to change things; and because there are some people who are only too happy to blame everything on the past, we will remain in a state of limbo regarding 'racism'.

Yes, I am about your age, I grew up in a totally integrated neighborhood and my next door neighbors were black and wonderful people. I spent as much time there as I did at my own home, we ate meals at each others homes and celebrated together. They corrected me when I did wrong as my parents corrected their children. I loved that family as much as I loved mine and still cherish their memories today.

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Mytimite
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I am talking about the black organizations that exist today not during segregation and Jim Crow days.

With your informed knowledge, please educate us about these organizations that you are referencing – and when and why they were founded. Miss Black America? – please correct me if I am wrong about that event.

Quote:

I will match my knowledge of actual history to yours any time.

From your words, I doubt if we have shared the same history in this country at the same time. I too lived in an integrated environment – but my parents insisted that I travel throughout our country before I traveled abroad. In the 50’s, this was not a pleasant experience for a black youngster. I know first hand what great progress has been made in race-relations in this country – and to ‘read’ what some say on this and other blogs is disconcerting. In our country, we have the freedom of speech – and I treasure that. But speech often gives a view into ones heart – and there are some insecure, hardened hearts expressed in this venue about ‘black’ people in general. You have not lived my history. I have not lived yours. Knowing the facts of history is not what is being discussed by me – it is the fear and hate that is expressed – and the apparent ignorance of the practice of racism that is polluting the greatness of this country.

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until people are willing to move on, stand on their own two feet and accomplishments, then we are never going to change things; and because there are some people who are only too happy to blame everything on the past, we will remain in a state of limbo regarding 'racism'

If one is acting as one did in the past – then one will be called on his/her actions. We are not in a state of limbo. Legally, racism is not practiced – but some citizens in this country have reacted as if the world has come to an end because we have an African-American as president. That is not living in the past. This reaction is NOW. Some people are fearful of ‘blacks’ moving into Fayette County – and yet residents tell me that blacks have been in Fayette County for some time – over 30 years. Mytimite, I'm sure you are aware of some 'whites' who are not standing on their 'own two feet'. Right?

Some here – and I’m not referring to you – act as if all ‘black’ citizens in Fayette County are criminals; will lower housing values; etc., etc., etc. The average ‘black’ citizen of Fayette County is a homeowner and has a higher income than the average ‘white’ citizen in Georgia.

My family ‘moved on’ over four generations ago. . . .but some who participate in this discussion act as if all ‘black’ people are of an inferior culture. Most ‘black’ participants either have been careful not to identify their race in this discussion – or have stopped participating because of this ‘freedom’ of expressing the words that denigrate ‘black’ citizens. I do participate in other discussions – but here there are those who have such a different aspect on ‘race-relations’ – that, yes I do enjoy sharing my perspective. If the news commentators, the politicians, the educators are still discussing ‘race’ as it is viewed by Americans – than I guess we as a country as still traveling the path of improving ‘race-relations’ in this country – and those who are not afraid to discuss this or share their experiences in a respectful manner help to clear the air of misinformation.

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My point was that you always manage to refer everything back to slavery

I have always referred Jim Crow and segregation as my experience with 'legal racism'. My great grandparents dealt well with slavery; saw their children educated and successful. My generation stands proudly on their efforts. My family moved on from slavery long ago. The hero's of those times were were first the slaves on the Amistad and then Frederick Douglas; and then Booker T. Washington; Carver; DeBois; Marshall; right on down in history to Obama. There are books in the library which aquaint us with many other black men and women who overcame slavery. It is interesting that these 'stories' were kept out of the segregated 'black' schools in our nation - and only through the 'black church' did black youngsters of yesteryear know of the possibility of achieving against tremendous odds. Today, most history books attempt to include the contributions of all Americans - and if the textbooks don't, students can easily go to other sources without going to a library, etc. thanks to technology. Slavery is a sad part of the history of mankind - and was not only here in America. Those who are able to trace their ancestry realize that they too may have had relatives who at one time were 'slaves' somewhere on the globe. Slaves came/come in all colors.

I am not obtuse - and find very little humor in this subject that so many feel they can 'joke' about. You at one time expressed a fear of not being taken seriously or being misunderstood. Well you are very clear in your expression of ignorance regarding segregation and Jim Crow actions. As you say, move on. Thanks.

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DM, right after reading your reply, which as I expected, was the

usual, I checked out today's Vent. The very first item says it all better and more succinctly than I ever could.

And, I quote: 'IF ALL YOU EVER SEE IS RACISM, YOU MIGHT BE A RACIST."

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Mytimite

I see you as a racist who refuses to see that race-relations has improved - but still needs work in this country. If we fear discussing it because feelings may be hurt - the progress will stop. Paula Dean was raised in my era. She acquired habits of speech and honesty which today has gotten her in deep water. I hope there are those who can accept her apology - but no one is accepting unacceptable behavior or words denigrating any race today. The consequences are apparent. When I traveled to the south, my parents sat me down and taught me how to 'act' around 'white' people - as if they were some foreign alien from another planet once we entered the south. Those days are over. I see and hear reality. Improvement has happened - but evidently we are not there yet with respecting all Americans for their character and contributions rather than the color of their skin. . .we're getting there! Neither one of us is going to change our opinion of one another. Let's agree to disagree and save space on this blog.

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DM - Enough already!

This "false superiority of white skin" bit is getting pretty stale. Please identify the people who are claiming that whites are somehow genetically superior to blacks. Name some names, please.

What you are doing is creating a strawman for a different argument - that one CULTURE is superior to the other. If you'd care to debate that, then we can examine rates of incarceration, graduation, literacy, out of wedlock pregnancy, employment, welfare dependency, etc.

The discrepancies you'll find there have nothing to do with genetic superiority/inferiority; they are products of the prevailing cultures, and culture is a choice. It's sad that so many of those in "your community" choose one that is pro-crime, anti-education, anti-personal responsibility, misogynistic, etc.

Need proof? Aside from the things listed above, how many young black people idolize convicted felon drug users like Snoop Dogg? Now how about Dr. Benjamin Carson? I'll wait while you google that last one.

PTC Observer
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Silver Star - Culture

Outcomes count, the gangster mentality is a symptom of a greater deterioration in our society as the institutions of Representative government, the free market, the rule of law, and civil society are being destroyed by its citizens.

These outcomes are the product of an era of negligence and complacency by a "free" society that chooses interest in "Dancing with the Stars" over the tragedy in Benghazi. A philosophy of government dependency as the solution to all of our ills and instilling in generations of Americans the notion that work is for suckers.

If you would like to read a great new book on this general subject, that just came out this month, read:

"The Great Degeneration: How Institutions Decay and Economies Die" by Niall Ferguson

Davids mom
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A thought provoking book - PTCO

We started reading it today!! The frightening reality is that even Fukuyama's prediction of China's growth, as of yesterday is not yet a reality. As race-relations improves in our country, our attention should be focused on the reality of what it takes to pay off our debt - and the consequences of deleveraging - and what the American people are willing to sacrifice. The heart of America, IMO, has been pierced by greed - the quick and often immoral making of the all-mighty dollar. There are many, conservative, liberal, independent - who are reading this book as a basis for hopefully meaningful discussion. We may not all agree with one another - but at least, IMO, we will be looking at realism rather than a mythical superiority that is fast fading. Thanks for sharing this here. . .fascinating and so far, an intelligent report of the reality of our world today.

Davids mom
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Silverstar

Thank you for validating the fear, hate and ignorance that identifies people by the color of their skin. The majority of intelligent human beings are judging individuals by their character and contribution to society. . . .and ignorance and hate is found in all 'cultures'.

Dr. Ben Carson was a guest speaker at a graduation at a public school. Quite inspirational. DIdn't have to 'google' him. Want to try someone else? There are many in 'my community' who are role models for all youth..

SilverStar
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Yes DM!

I think we've made a breakthrough! I absolutely agree that identifying people by the color of their skin promotes "fear, hate, and ignorance." So, I am certain that you will join with me in condemning such groups as the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the National Conference of Black Mayors, the Congressional Black Caucus, the United Negro College Fund, Miss Black USA, etc, etc, ad nauseam. After all, these groups have made identifying people by the color of their skin a part of their very names. As such, they are prime examples of those who spread "fear, hate, and ignorance." Right DM?

You see DM, the truth is that people like you (and the KKK) are the only ones left in America who still cling to racial identities and the desire to be seen and treated as separate and different. It is you who seek to "identify people by the color of their skin," not me. It is you who sees no problem with special voting districts drawn to create blocks of voters of the same race. You are intelligent enough to understand all of this; however, acknowledging it would force you to conclude that the real bigot in the room is you.

I made some statements about the relative merits of cultures (not races) in America. Instead of addressing them, you countered with insinuations about "fear, hate, and ignorance." I'll take that to mean you've conceded the point. After all, facts are facts, and they have no regard for politically correct sensitivities.

I'm still waiting for you to name those who are claiming that "white skin" is somehow "superior." You've made that statement several times now. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.

Davids mom
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Silverstar

I wish you would hold your breath - it would be a better world without it! IMO. These groups that you have identified as 'black' groups, which they are, were organized because of the difficulty they had in expressing their concerns in the 'other' groups of American citizens. Are you saying that the 'white' mayors of these United States welcomed with open arms the 'black' mayors who first entered the political spectrum? Let's deal with reality here - and not your view to protect your misplaced insecurities and/or guilt feelings. You inferred that 'black' people chose a culture of poverty, crime, ignorance, . . .did the 'white' citizens of our country who find themselves in the same culture 'choose' that? Are Italian Americans still burdened with the 'mob' culture? You talk like you had a family member in the KKK. Did you? I have never denied my racist feelings. I however acknowledge and actually rejoice in the change that I have seen in race relations between American citizens of today. I have never engaged in an activity that oppressed a white person - and until I traveled to the south as a youngster, never had any reason to fear a 'white' person. I have never kept a 'white' person from being employed. I really don't think I qualify as a bigot. All of my life I have prayed alongside 'white' people in church; had 'white' people in my home as guests; even have accepted 'white' people as members of my family. How about you? It's late. Good night.

Davids mom
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Someone shared another thought - Silverstar
Quote:

The discrepancies you'll find there have nothing to do with genetic superiority/inferiority; they are products of the prevailing cultures, and culture is a choice. It's sad that so many of those in "your community" choose one that is pro-crime, anti-education, anti-personal responsibility, misogynistic, etc.

The culture of slavery: 'My community' did not choose that. Many of our forefathers took steps to overcome that culture - many did not. Why did some Italian Americans choose crime? ETc., etc., etc. The percentage of African Americans in jail is too high - but what is 'your community' doing about the 'white' males who are criminals and/or in jail? What in your culture has your young people buying illegal drugs from some young people in my community? Wouldn't it be more helpful if those of us who realized these problems joined together in how to help our young people. Have you ever been to a 'snoop-dog' concert? More of your people are there - they have the money to buy the tickets. The light at the end of the tunnel of ignorance and fear ?- more of OUR young people are ignoring this 'race' thing - and working together with those who have kindred tastes - regardless of the color of their skin or the slant of their eyes. We have a responsibility as adults in the community to assist them in making the right choices in life. How are you assisting OUR young people?

From the tone of your sharing - one might think that your culture (skin color) is superior. Are you superior to Dr. Ben? Why? Why not? Is the young man who killed children in an elementary classroom 'superior' to Dr. Ben? There are many men of color - and not all are Republican and/or conservative, who have achieved as Americans -not all are in jail, not all are drug dealers and/or pimps. There are some in our country who feel that the culture of 'white' Americans is superior. But there are too many slave narratives, and sharing of those who worked in service of 'white' American families that has exposed that 'white America' is not the Ozzie and Harriet of the 50's TV program.
On the other hand, there are tens of thousands of 'white' Americans who practice their belief in the Constitution and their Christian faith who have made America truly the land of accomplished dreams for all - men and women of all races. Again, if I made a list of those whose words seemed to express a feeling of 'white superiority, your name would be at the top of the list. (Certainly not among the tens of thousands of American citizens who are acknowledging the progress that this country has made in 'race' relations. Now we just have to be careful that we don't become elitist - and adhere to 'class discrimination'.

fayettehuntman
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"Lincoln’s Emancipation was

"Lincoln’s Emancipation was not only conditional, it didn’t apply to the slaves in Union slave states of Maryland, Delaware, Missouri and Kentucky or to any other slaves in Northern states. It also did not apply in Tennessee and the New Orleans area where Union forces were already in control.

William H. Seward, Secretary of State, observed, “We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free.”"

Liberals have always loved Lincoln; not because he did any good for anybody, but because he showed such little regard to the US Constitution (he actually "suspended" it) and was such a proponent of a bigger, stronger Federal bureaucracy that bashed the rights of individual States. He was never a"friend" of blacks or Christians, and had he not been a "martyr" he would have gone done in history as a small-minded man, in way over his head, confused and guilt-ridden. But the day he was killed, the press turned him into a fantasy that never existed. Try to find anybody who thought highly of him BEFORE he was killed! He was directly responsible for the deaths of more American soldiers than ALL of other wars put together!

Davids mom
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fayettehuntman
Quote:

Liberals have always loved Lincoln; not because he did any good for anybody, but because he showed such little regard to the US Constitution (he actually "suspended" it) and was such a proponent of a bigger, stronger Federal bureaucracy that bashed the rights of individual States. He was never a"friend" of blacks or Christians, and had he not been a "martyr" he would have gone done in history as a small-minded man, in way over his head, confused and guilt-ridden. But the day he was killed, the press turned him into a fantasy that never existed. Try to find anybody who thought highly of him BEFORE he was killed! He was directly responsible for the deaths of more American soldiers than ALL of other wars put together!

Thank you so much for sharing this. I will share your opinion with others. . . as an example of the minority thought of Republicans in Red States. This will ASSURE that the Republican Party of possibly regaining the White House by 2024. God bless you! (Now of course, the more moderate Republicans/residents of Red States, who care about the American people and not just about gaining power may prevail) Extremism on either side of a discussion of Christians, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Whites is anti-American.
There is not one United States president who has at one time or another 'suspended' the Constitution or held the rights of all Americans above the rights of individual states. Look it up. It makes for interesting reading.

tgarlock
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F-hunt, I have that same fear about Obama

My opinion of him can't be repeated in polite company, and I believe history will likely be a bit puzzled as to how such an unaccomplished and incapable man was elected president, and re-elected despite all good reasons he should have been defeated.

But if some nutcase were to succeed in an assassination attempt, that would likely turn him into a deified martyr. So I pray for his safety.

Terry Garlock

Davids mom
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History
Quote:

I believe history will likely be a bit puzzled as to how such an unaccomplished and incapable man was elected president, and re-elected despite all good reasons he should have been defeated.

So many have made the same statement about Bush. (But the fiasco in Florida is now part of history)

Magna cum laude vs. C average? Hmmmm. I praise President Bush (2) for his concern for the children in Africa and his success at fatherhood. I will visit his Presidential Library - and I'm sure I'll find other accomplishements. We all sincerely pray for the safety of our leaders. Thank you for your prayers - they are probably more needed than you realize. However, President Obama will probably be 'deiefied' because he was the 'first' - just as George Washington has been 'deified'.

MajorMike
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fayettehuntman - all true

Good post and ...... all true. He even offered to let the South keep their slaves if they would "return to the fold" and pay the cotton tariff.

Davids mom
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Thank you Mr. Garlock - very informative

for those who did not have an excellent social studies/history teacher in high school. We were always taught respect for Mr. Lincoln in the context of 'truth' and his ability to get things done within the atmosphere of a country about to split. He saved the Union - AND freed the slaves. The Republican Party until recently, was the party that celebrated Abraham Lincoln's accomplishments. Abraham Lincoln was a politician who accomplished great things. There are not many politicians in the current Congress that history will praise for accomplishments.

BobbyBiplane
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Mr. Garlock

Yawn ...

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