Give ’em ‘L,’ Mitt

Cal Thomas's picture

In the 1993 movie “Dave” the faux president (played by Kevin Kline) calls in his best friend (played by Charles Grodin) and they stay up all night balancing the federal budget, not by raising taxes, but by cutting unnecessary and wasteful spending.

If only it were that easy.

Most presidents have talked about cutting spending, but few succeed because Congress holds the power of the purse and is reluctant to give it up.

There have been serious and not so serious attempts to reduce government spending, from Ronald Reagan’s Grace Commission to something called OMB Circular A-76, a memo from the Office of Management and Budget to all federal agencies that has been around in one form or another over several administrations. A-76’s 2003 revision calls for the identification of “all activities performed by government personnel as either commercial or inherently governmental.”

To borrow a song from the musical, “Annie Get Your Gun,” commercial ventures should look at government and say about many of its functions, “Anything you can do, I can do better” and then they should be allowed to do it.

The model for this could be the government of former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. During her time in office, she privatized many industries and utilities previously owned by the government because she believed, correctly, that the private economy could do a better and less expensive job of running them. Her philosophy, mostly absent from the film “The Iron Lady,” was: “We should not expect the state to appear in the guise of an extravagant good fairy at every christening, a loquacious companion at every stage of life’s journey, and the unknown mourner at every funeral.”

Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney could follow her example by challenging the country to look deep inside its Puritan DNA and rediscover the principle of what might be called the three L’s: limited government, liberty, and living within our means. Give ‘em “L,” Mitt!

Here’s what Romney should do and it might be the strategy that could work to force even a Republican Congress to obey what the Constitution and common sense require. If elected, Romney should pledge to bring in a team of outside auditors and private entities to determine what government ought to be doing and what it might outsource. If a private company can perform a government function with greater efficiency and at lower cost, let it. If a government agency is redundant or no longer necessary, eliminate it.

No “interest group” should be able to exercise more influence than that of taxpaying citizens.

Traditional spring cleaning finds many of us going through closets, basements and attics, disposing of things we no longer want or need. Toward the same goal, Romney should lead a “spring cleaning” of government.

Romney might cite the “Congressional Pig Book” published by Citizens Against Government Waste (www.cagw.org). The 2012 edition, as always, contains examples of wasteful spending in many government agencies.

This year’s “Pig Book” shows that while “the number and cost of earmarks have decreased dramatically since fiscal year 2010,” the accurate amount of waste is difficult to figure because “transparency and accountability have regressed immeasurably.”

Two recent reports from the Government Accountability Office name 51 areas of duplication, overlapping and fragmented government functions, which, if ended, would save an estimated $400 billion. There’s a start to which no one should have an objection.

While President Obama promotes his “Buffett Tax” on millionaires and billionaires, Romney should focus on the government’s waste of taxpayer money. If government is such a poor steward of what it now receives, why should it be given more?

That can be a winning issue, not only for Romney but for Republican congressional candidates. The pledge they should be signing is not only the “no new taxes” one from Grover Norquist’s Americans for Tax Reform (www.atr.org), but a new one not to support any additional spending until unnecessary expenditures are cut by transferring many government functions to the private sector and retiring those that are not needed.

[Cal Thomas is America’s most widely syndicated op-ed columnist, appearing in more than 600 national newspapers. He is the author of more than 10 books and is a FOX News political contributor since 1997. Email Cal Thomas at tmseditors@tribune.com.] ©2012 TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Sally Hemings & Jefferson

As I mentioned below, it is not just the DNA results, which are compelling and I agree they don't directly "prove" that Jefferson fathered Sally's children.

Consider this, I think it sums up most historians position concerning this controversy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

These are facts that strongly support the notion that Jefferson fathered Sally’s children, likely all of them. As I said Sally was never known to have anyone else in her life. She was 14 when she went to Paris and was pregnant when she returned. Her first child was delivered; a boy named Tom, shortly after her return from Paris and died shortly afterward. She had two other children die in infancy both girls. Jefferson was at Monticello the year before each child was born, making it possible for conception of each child, including stillbirths and he was certainly in Paris when Sally was there. She gave birth to Tom shortly after her return. As I mentioned Jefferson either through not pursuing “runaways” or outright emancipation freed all of Sally’s children and all of these children remained free throughout their lifetimes. Many of them were considered white. Sally remained at Monticello until Jefferson’s death as a house servant.

Now while this does not “prove” that Jefferson fathered these children, it strongly suggests that he did. It is impossible to prove. However, any rational person putting together the facts would draw a conclusion that he did. Jefferson was a widower, a lonely man and all respects healthy. He never married and never had a close female “friend” following his wife’s death. He was not a saint and Sally was his wife’s half sister bearing a striking resemblance to his late wife. There were wide reports that this was happening with Jefferson during the period in local papers and talk among neighbors. It was a “scandal” during his second run for the Presidency.

It would seem that the only myth is that Jefferson was above it and could have never done such a thing. However, we know that this activity was quite common among the Virginia planter class of the 18th Century. Why not Jefferson? It was one of those “acceptable indiscretions” of this period, hidden only slightly from those on the plantation.

Now what are your facts to support your position that this could have never happened?

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Lindsey

Why is this issue so important to you? There are very few 'pure' Americans (white) in our country. Americans of mixed blood are a factor in our history that is a plus today - and the refusal to acknowledge this is a negative. As those who take the time to read all of the research will find, DNA supports that at least one of Sally's children had Jefferson blood. Narratives and oral history lead some to different conclusions as to what Jefferson supplied this 'y' chromosome. When one visits Monticello, the proximity of Sally's bedroom to Thomas Jeffersons bedroom is thought provoking. The 'black' Jeffersons of today have interesting accounts of how they have been treated during this discussion of Sally Hemmings, their relative. Thomas Jefferson is not our only president who may or may not have had personal/ sexual relationships with blacks. Now this will really upset you, but our present President may not be the first president with black blood in his family line. You know what Lindsey, it makes interesting reading. . . and brings out the insecurities of racist Americans. I gained great respect for John McCain when he expressed his disgust with those who intimated that he had an illicit relationship with a 'black' woman because of his dark skinned daughter. (Adopted from Bangladesh). It was ridiculous that he had to explain to his ten year old daughter the ignorance that still exists in this country.

From The Guardian:

Quote:

In 2000 Senator John McCain, whose adopted daughter, Bridget, is originally from Bangladesh, found himself the subject of a whisper campaign implying he had fathered a black child outside his marriage.
Radio stations in South Carolina were inundated with phone calls asking talk show hosts what they thought of McCain having fathered an illegitimate child.
McCain lost in South Carolina and eventually lost the Republican nomination to George W Bush. In 2010 Bush's long-time political adviser Karl Rove denied leading the "whisper campaign" against McCain.

There are reams of material regarding Sally Hemmings and her relationship to the Jefferson family. In most countries, this would be a private issue within the Jefferson family. In Jefferson's time, it was the scandal of the day. Sally was still related to Jefferson by marriage, since no one has disputed her relationship to his wife. The story has made an interesting movie for us to view and evidently still arouses interesting discussions.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
The issue is not important DM

However your preconceived beliefs are.

Remember you said "DNA-DON'T LIE"

There is no DNA evidence so why is it important to you? Now that is the question.

Yes DM there are reams of information and material on this all started from rumor, innuendo and just plain old speculation.

Then the DNA story burst on the scene as definitive proof.. and even that was spun up and was shown by the very team that gave us the info as not proof. But yet even years later after the DNA was shown to be not the smoking gun everyone thought it was you still used it's results as "proof" of the smoking gun.

Now DM that is and was the issue and the story. I know no one is perfect.....and the Founders were not Saints. No one is... but many try to smear the Founders as a way to say the Constitution is tainted.

It's the old imperfect man.. cannot create a perfect object argument ergo the Constitution can and should be constantly evolving and re-defined by other imperfect men.

A perfect circular argument or as I like to call it... A Logic Bomb.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Lindsey

I have accepted that there are males on this earth with preconceived ideas regarding topics of race - but I don't understand why it is so important for some humans to feel it is their sworn duty to disprove any idea of humans of different races having relationships. In our country, this 'black' /'white' thing has been considered a rent in our fabric of democracy. You have expressed your point of view - and others have offered research exploring different points of view of this 'scandal' regarding Thomas Jefferson. This is healthy. To say there is no DNA EVIDENCE contradicts your own statement of the possibility of 'another' Jefferson being the father of one or more of Sally's children. The Sally Hemmings story is a sad story of a woman, because of the color of her skin and the circumstances of her birth, being forced to accept a certain station in life that may not have been of her choosing. She was offered opportunities that many 'slaves' did not have. She traveled to Europe, was taught the skills of a 'lady' of her time. I have done research regarding this issue - for it is interesting to me how by some accounts, this was a woman who was depended upon to bring comfort to Jefferson's daughters, and very possibly comfort to Jefferson himself. She was considered 'part of the family' and included in many of the activities of the family - as a servant. Reading the narratives of those persons of the era - there were even different opinions at that time. It made for great tabloid fare. It is interesting that some of her children proudly included the Jefferson as well as the Hemming name, but lived as 'white'. In the majority of black families, with similar history, the subject would never have been broached - but the celebrity of this story and it's historical value is just too much to ignore. I had the opportunity to have a professor who invited a member of the 'black' Jefferson family to share their knowledge and remembrances of family history with our class. Sally's children were evidently raised as brothers and sisters. Their family on the plantation had special privileges not afforded to other slaves. It must have been difficult for the adult brothers and sisters to 'listen' to the rumors among the plantation inhabitants. It must have been difficult to have your mother spoken of as 'loose' by some accounts - and the master's favorite by other accounts. It this era of scientific evidence, we still cannot measure the emotions and beliefs of the 'time'. The indisputable fact is that Sally was the mother. . . .and some of her children lived as 'white' and some of her children lived as 'black'. Many on the plantation felt, according to narratives, etc., that because of Sally's character - Thomas Jefferson was accepted as the father of her children. Let history leave her reputation alone. No one wants their forebear thought of as a helpless victim of 'rape' or a 'whore'. We know that 'man' tries to shield women of questionable character. Some are portrayed as saints. (Mary) We, after looking at all of the history, can make up our own minds. Yes, I have some 'inbred' opinions - as do you.
'

Veritas
Veritas's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/23/2010
PTCO

Thanks for the escape from the narrow chasm. Now please inform me as to where exactly I stated " that this could never have happened". Any rational person would look at facts from both sides before commiting to a conclusion. First its hard to accept information retrieved from wiki. I don't know why so many bloggers resort to it as their mainstay source. No research or educational facilities or faculties recognize Wikipedia as a valid or reliable reference/ source. I do not think it's out of the realm of possibility that Thomas Jefferson could have fathered a child with Sally. I just believe presented with verifiable facts that it is highly unlikely.
"1. The DNA results published in Nature actually disproved the allegations originally made by James Callender in 1802 that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings’ first child, Thomas Woodson. The descendants of Thomas Woodson did not possess the distinctive Jefferson Y-chromosome, and so the DNA testing proved that Hemings’ first son was not fathered by Thomas Jefferson or any other male in the Jefferson line (The Jefferson-Hemings DNA Study as told by Herbert Barger, Jefferson Family Historian February 12, 1999).
2. Thomas Jefferson was already an old man when Eston was born. “Thomas Jefferson was 65 years old and Sally Hemings 37 … in the year Eston [Hemings] was born” and “at that time [65 years old] was a very advanced age” (David Murray, “A Dangerous Liaison: DNA and Politics: Why the media confused suspicions about Jefferson and Hemings with fact,” Washington Post, November 23, 1998; William S. Randall, author of Thomas Jefferson: A Life).
If Thomas and Sally did have a child together, the least that can be said is that their union was not the result of the passion of youth
3. There were many other Jefferson males who lived close by Sally Hemings, nearly all of whom were younger than Thomas Jefferson. “Jefferson himself was not tested, only descendants of his paternal uncle …. The findings show a probability that the DNA of Eston shows a descent from some male in the Jefferson paternal line, rather than being a randomly occurring match from someone in the general population….” Yet “there were twenty-five men within twenty miles of Monticello who were all Jeffersons and who had the same Y-chromosome.  And twenty-three of these men were younger than Thomas Jefferson.” Any one of these twenty-five Jeffersons may have been the father of Eston, and (as implied above) to me it is more likely that the father would have been a younger man that Thomas was at the time (Ibid.)
4. Thomas Jefferson’s brother Randolph Jefferson is a more likely candidate to be Eston’s father than Thomas for several reasons.
First, Randolph was “12 years younger” than Thomas and spent a lot of time socializing with Thomas Jefferson’s slaves. As Jefferson’s slave Isaac later recalled, “Old Master’s brother, Mass Randall was a mighty simple man: used to come out among black people, play the fiddle and dance half the night; hadn’t much more sense than Isaac.” Thomas, on the other hand, “sometimes complained that he couldn’t get to sleep because of the fiddle playing and noise in the slave quarters” (Gene Edward Veith, “The kid is not my son: Scholars argue that Jefferson didn’t father his slave’s children, World Magazine, July 21, 2001; The Jefferson-Hemings DNA Study as told by Herbert Barger, Jefferson Family Historian February 12, 1999).
Second, historians have “found a letter from Thomas inviting Randolph, who lived 20 miles away, to come for a visit at exactly the time that Eston would have been conceived” Not only that, but Randolph visited Monticello again six days after Eston’s birth. (Gene Edward Veith, “The kid is not my son: Scholars argue that Jefferson didn’t father his slave’s children, World Magazine, July 21, 2001; Herbert Barger, letter to naturalscience.com, May 25, 1999).
Third, “Eston’s descendants never claimed that their forebear was the son of the president.  According to the family tradition, his father was not Thomas Jefferson, but ‘an uncle.’  The president’s daughters and the whole household knew his younger brother as ‘Uncle Randolph’” (Gene Edward Veith, “The kid is not my son: Scholars argue that Jefferson didn’t father his slave’s children, World Magazine, July 21, 2001)
Fourth, “Randolph, named for his maternal Randolph family, was a widower and between wives when, shortly after his wife’s death, Sally became pregnant with her first child . . . . She continued having children until 1808 when Eston was born. Randolph Jefferson would marry his second wife the next year, 1809 . . .” (The Jefferson-Hemings DNA Study as told by Herbert Barger, Jefferson Family Historian February 12, 1999).
It is hard for me to believe that Thomas and Sally had a decades long love affair (as many maintain), but somehow managed to only have children between 1795 and 1808, the very years during which Randolph was in between wives.
Fifth, “[T]hree of Sally Hemings’ children, Harriet, Beverly and Eston (the latter two not common names), were given names of the Randolph family” (Ibid.)

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Veritas - We

agree then, you agree that it's possible that Jefferson could have fathered Sally's children and I agree that it's possible that he didn't.

It is also possible that Randolph took up where Thomas left off.

There are all kinds of possibilities, my sense is that it is likely that Jefferson did in fact father some or all of these children. Either way neither of us will "prove" anything here. It's only opinions looking at the same facts.

In the "scandal" that accompanied Jefferson's second run for the Presidency, Thomas denied these accusations through intermediaries. Furthermore Jefferson expressed an "aversion" to a "mixture of color in America" in a letter to William Short dated January 18, 1826. He was near death at this time and I speculate he was very concerned with his legacy. So, Jefferson did in fact reject the whole concept of miscegenation. However, Mr. Jefferson was not Mr. Washington.

BTW, I am not suggesting that Wiki is an excellent choice of reference, but one that was easily available to me at the time of that posting. The first paragraph of that link is consistent with what I believe.

As I said, I am open to changing my opinion and would read any text that you suggest that makes a counter argument. One that I have read that counters my opinion is John C. Miller's "The Wolf by the Ears". A very good read.

Thanks for your excellent post.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
PTCO/VERITAS

The source of this history is from Jefferson's home and is available to tourists - as researched fact. This is not a Wikipedia account.

Interesting: http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/sally-hemings

Veritas
Veritas's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/23/2010
Yes Thank you DM and PTCO

And here again a researched hypothetical belief..not as fact...There is and never has been any conclusive proof.
"Most historians BELIEVE" this was / is based on the same DNA study that the scientist themselves corrected.( as I posted earlier) No geneticist has ever stated conclusive evidence. Possible yes but not probable in my opinion. As PTCO said we won't prove anything here ... I just try to clarify that there are two schools of belief and it's good to thoroughly research both to make an informed decision.
Thanks again :-)
PTCO a text I highly recommend that you might enjoy is William G. Hyland Jr. In Defense of Thomas Jefferson: The Sally Hemings Sex Scandal .

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Veritas again Thanks...

for helping to open the minds of those that might have believed accounts not based in facts. Conjecture yes.. Facts no.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Lindsey - History

Much of what we think we know about 18th Century life in America is conjecture, it is difficult for us "moderns" to think the way they thought and to put ourselves in that world. If we thought the way they thought, today much of what we have today would not be too pleasant for many people. On the other hand, the foundational thinking that was a coalescence of the Enlightenment was pristine but it was not perfect.

Nor should we expect it to be perfect, just as we should not expect the Founders to be perfect. Keep in mind that if they had been perfect to their ideals, we would have never had a debate over slavery that culminated in a Great War over those ideals. The government that was their legacy to us has been destroyed and our freedoms taken in bits and pieces by imperfect men. They too were men and not the gods that we desire in our modern perception of them.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
PTCO again agreed...

We only know "History" through "historians many with their own inbred biases.

“History is always written by the winners. When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books" Dan Brown

He was correct. History is a malleable, nebulous at times, concept when viewed by the masses can mean one thing to one or all or none.

One thing I truly believe in is the concept if you don't know it you are doomed to repeat it.. We are following that path today.

Many things we "think" we know about our past are made up in more fiction or myth than any real facts. Jefferson and the rest of the Founders are great examples of this.

I remember being taught in School about Jefferson and his Slave babies.. Come to find out it was not so black and white (pun intended). There is much conjecture but that is not what is being taught nor propagated throughout our history. Look at DM's statement that "DNA-DON'T LIE" there is no conclusive evidence and in fact the very Scientist that created the study and by it the controversy recanted that very study and said that the Y-Chromo was NOT unique to Jefferson but she has inbred biases thus she will believe what she "feels" or "wants" to be true no matter the evidence to the contrary.

Could have happened but like Veritas said not likely.

No man is perfect. Well no man born of man is perfect that is...

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Jefferson Lies - I

will read it and let you know what I think.

The fact that the DNA is not conclusive and specific to T. Jefferson, does not resolve the issue. It just means that someone in the Jefferson family likely fathered at least one of these children. I like you only have only admiration for Mr. Jefferson.....but he was a man of his times nonetheless.

It was his ideas and the ideas of the Enlightenment that are of more importance to us, not how he conducted his life in his own times.

Regards,

PTCO

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Veritas - Well,

just downloaded it to my Kindle Cloud Reader, it's on the list. I typically read 3 or 4 at a time and finish them at different times. I'll let you and Lindsey know when I am finished with these two recommendations.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
DM - Thank you

for this link, something I should have thought of when I posted that "worthless" link to Wiki. ;-)

Veritas
Veritas's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/23/2010
.

.

Joe Kawfi
Joe Kawfi's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/20/2009
DEPORT ALL ILLEGALS NOW!!!

The U.S. Government is completely incapable of enforcing U.S. Law. U.S. Citizens need to demand that all illegals are completely cut off from any sort of U.S. benefit so that they self-deport back to Mexico.

Just read this story about the criminal illegal aliens stealing money from taxpayers to pay for illegitimate, illegal children and some that don't even live in this country. The incompetent, irresponsible Federal government is too busy suing Arizona for enforcing Federal law to care.
U.S. citizens must take action by refusing to hire and refuse to give funds to any illegals and force them to Deport immediately. They are bankrupting our country.

Tax loophole costs billions

George has repeatedly warned the IRS that additional child tax credits are being abused by undocumented workers. In 2009, his office released an audit report that showed ITIN tax filers received about $1 billion in additional child tax credits. Last year, the inspector general released a new report showing the problem now costs American tax payers more than $4.2 billion

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Joe K...

...have you ever seen the movie '300'? I've often thought a wall such that Leonidas built would serve well as a deterrent. Heck, we could just use every drug-dealing, gang/cartel member caught on this side of the border and start there. Want to sneak in our country? You can crawl over the rotting corpses of your fellow countrymen... Of course, it'll never happen; Democrats need their eventual votes...

MajorMike
MajorMike's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/20/2005
kcchiefandy

I like the way you think! It would indeed be one hellofa wall.

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Illegals and Tax Credits

What a country!!! (eyes rolling)

So I wonder what's the chief perpetrator going to do about it? Will he and his party pursue a policy to appease Hispanic voters while continuing on with this madness?

BTW, I see that Jessica Colotl received another deportation deferment which makes the 3rd one. Oh, and she graduated last May. Wasn't she suppose to leave after completing school?

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Cyclist

Why Jessica will be here LEGALLY if she elects to remain. She has a good lawyer - right?

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/18166324/deportation-delayed-again?clien...

http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/colotl-allowed-to-stay-1432830.html

Why the GOP has lost the student /youth vote. (And their parents) Good work guys!!

http://news.yahoo.com/gop-blocks-senate-debate-dem-student-loan-bill-163...

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Davids mom

Oh yes, her lawyer and current employer can keep extending her stay year-by-year but is that anyway to live knowing that it could end?

Oh and for that student loan vote exercise and those mean old conservatives, consider this; the money we pay illegals for tax credits for their kiddies would just about cover the cost of the proposed student loan measure.

To me it sounds so easy, illegals are sucking on "free" money that could be used elsewhere.

Now, remind me again which party is trying gain from Hispanic votes.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Cyclist

Those who support Obama are not taking any vote for granted. But just think. If a person commits murder, do we punish his child? Where are Jessica's illegal parents? I'm sick of both liberals and conservatives in this Congress. And I agree with Barbara Bush - this Congress and it's members are a disgrace to the United States. The reason we have a two party system is to compromise for the American people. To do nothing should be illegal - and they should be deported to their great grand parents homeland. They don't deserve to live in the states. LOL

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Davids mom - punishing

Perhaps her parents should take responsibility for their actions and look her in the eye and say they're sorry that they really screwed-up by thumbing their nose(s) at the laws of this nation. Their actions led to this not the law.

It's the wrong time of the year to be sick of politics as the season is about to "double-clutch" into a higher gear.

We'll vote based on how we are "wired" but to watch the candidates sell themselves out makes for interesting conversation and as I have always said.....it keeps the conga line moving.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Cyclist

Yup.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
...and a cha...cha...cha

Reminds me of a very bad vacation I had in MBSC once..

A pretend Zena doing a conga line... don't ask.

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Young & ignorant, DM...

...just as the Dems like 'em. Easier to exploit with populous b.s. when you don't know much or have much life experience...

Joe Kawfi
Joe Kawfi's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/20/2009
Sky-high Electric Bills Courtesy of Obama EPA’s War on Coal

“So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they are going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.” — Candidate Barack Obama, 
San Francisco Chronicle interview, 
January 17, 2008

“Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket.” -Candidate Barack Obama, 
San Francisco Chronicle interview, 
January 17, 2008

Sky-high Electric Bills Courtesy of Obama EPA’s War on Coal

NUK_1
NUK_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/17/2007
DM is correct

The amount of Medicare/Medicaid fraud is staggering. I see first-hand evidence of this all the time now and there are a lot of resources being used to root out the BS these days, but it's not easy. While the bigger guys involved may get busted or at least stopped for a while from being reimbursed for fraudulent claims, a lot of small timers pop-up constantly to try and get a piece of what they rightly perceive as "easy action."

This happens daily with ambulance services billing Medicare for "emergency transport" when it wasn't and all the way to non-existent people being transported and claims filed. Apparently years ago quite a few people discovered the ease of going to the darkside on this as there is a flood of them these days. The amount of identity theft in this sector is also incredible as a lot of service providers are totally non-compliant on patient data security or actually using that patient data to later file bogus claims.

Legit providers are getting delayed on reimbursements due to the rampant fraud within to the point that it heavily discourages them from doing anything involving Medicare/Medicaid situations. It's like Whack-A-Mole where you bust somebody in Hicksville, USA and shut him down and then he pops up with a different corporation in a different city the next week, doing the same thing.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Nuk_1

The essential problem is that we allow government to "allocate" money, if you want Medicare/Medicaid fraud to end, end the programs as we know them.

The government is not the vehicle we should use to provide healthcare to the public, we should use our own judgment and the free market to deliver services that we buy. Why should we give the government more and more to do less and less. It only enriches those that will defraud the people.

The government is pathetic at providing any kind of "service" and it always will be, it's not their money.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
PTCO

Please share the plan for non-government services to the American people. Who will be responsible for the planning and implementation of these services? How will these services be monitored? How will these services be paid for? Thanks.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
DM - Are you

having a senior moment this morning?

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Cal I too wish it were that easy...

A poster here, that is well known for his hard left views, was asked "Can we keep spending forever without consequences"? After much prompting he finally said "yes" and that is the problem.

Too many on both sides but mainly on the left feel we can indeed keep spending as if tomorrow will never come. They have the entitlement mentality that they can spend all they want and when the bill comes due they will simply file bankruptcy and get to keep "all the stuff".

In fact I have read left leaning economist actually say that a "reset" read that as failure" of our economy might be a good thing. It would cancel the debt or at least allow us to pay it off by pennies on the dollar.

This mentality is very prevalent among the people AND that means the Politicians that are sent to DC will have the same outlook.

A course correction once the boat has entered the falls requires some hard choices. Choices I fear we don't have the will to make guaranteeing a forced coursed correction that none of us will like.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Coulda, woulda, shoulda

Coulda,woulda,shoulda - I'm afraid won't get the job done. Without the American will to sacrifice and feel the pain of reform,, progress will be slow. Look what enforced austerity has done in the past and present to other countries. A good start is oversight of all government programs to stop the knowncorruption.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
DM do you see where that will is going to come from?

Because I don't. All I see and hear is politicians promising more free stuff and the masses demanding it...

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/entertainment/post/2012/04/noah-...

"The protesters, many in wheelchairs, were handcuffed in the rotunda of the Cannon House Office Building, reports AP. They were urging Congress not to cut Medicaid. They said cuts would force people with disabilities and the elderly out of their homes and into nursing homes to get the care they need."

" Angry about tuition increases and cuts in courses and enrollment, a dozen students at California State University have taken their protest beyond marches — their usual tactic — and declared a hunger strike."

...And this is just the beginning. No one is really talking about the cuts that is going to be needed to save the US Economy and the Dollar.

Reuters is reporting that Gold is likely to rise above $2000 an ounce by the end of 2012. Why because they believe we will do another QE3 and raise the debt even more to keep giving away more stuff.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Lindsey
Quote:

Because I don't. All I see and hear is politicians promising more free stuff and the masses demanding it..

The 'will' will come when more than 40% of eligible voters express their will through their vote. The corporations/king makers control the politicians - not the people. Medicare is not free. Unrestrained fraud has almost bankrupted this country. Until this is dealt with - most taxpayers will not support taking services away from our elderly, our veterans, our poor. Clean up the corruption and then deal with the reality of where our money is going.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
DM agreed

This has been an on-going subject for some time.. Remember Pelosi was going to drain the swamp and all that.. Didn't happen just more of the same.

We cannot trust the current crop of politicians to do the hard job. The only way we are going to solve the problem is accept that cuts are going to have to be made. Yes stopping the corruption is important but just like earmarks it makes up a small part of the overall spending problem we have. As a whole smaller Government is the only way to get a handle on this. This leviathan of a Government we now have has too many bureaucracies, duplicated programs and fiefdoms that getting a handle on the corruption is impossible.

The recent GSA is but one example. It is however only the tip of the iceberg...

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Lindsey
Quote:

As a whole smaller Government is the only way to get a handle on this

A smaller government will not change the corruption - IMO. As long as we see this as a partisan issue - nothing will change. This is an American problem. Many people have lost confidence in the two party system - and are declaring themselves Independents. Remember - nothing is impossible. Allowing the corruption to continue will not solve our problems. . . .and cutting programs without carefully calculating the consequences will be disastrous . The cleaning up of fraud is a start - without cutting services to the poor, the elderly, and our veterans. Just saying cut spending on programs - is in reality putting more people out of work - and stopping the slow turn around of this mess. Free market doesn't work if no one has the money to support it.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
DM - Why is

Why is it that you can't see that a large gang can steal a lot more than a small gang? Corruption won't go away, you right about this as long as we have a government, but we can and should reduce it. The best way to reduce it is to shrink the size of the "gang", the smaller the better.

In your world what happened to helping the poor through charity?

Reducing the size of government will not put people out of work, it will create jobs. Whether people would want to work depends on how much we pay them not to work. I could explain this if you wish, but quite frankly I don't think you are open to ideas that deal with the free market.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
PTCO
Quote:

Free market doesn't work if no one has the money to support it.

. . and especially if we owe our souls to a Communist country!! Come to the real world PTCO. There is nothing wrong with your idealized world - but it is not in existence today. I feel we can deal with today's reality within the confines of our Constitution without destroying our country.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
DM - You're right and I am wrong

I should have said you're not open to ideas counter to solutions vested in governmental power.

Sorry for the misstatement.

I'll keep working for the kind of society and government I think will provide security and freedom for the individual, and you keep working for whatever you happen to believe. Sadly, I think you and your ilk will ultimately win and we will collapse into fascism (again). Only, this time there won't be a beacon of freedom to bale out the world and WE could be the center of the abyss.

BTW, the tattered Constitution doesn't guarantee freedom, it only provides a structure to protect it. It is the people that will destroy the country, The Majority of special interest voters.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
PTCO

In a discussion, one is expressing opinions . No one has to be right or wrong. Because I have a different opinion does not qualify one of your opinion as 'Ilk'.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
DM - Look

your "ilk" is correct, your "kind" if you like. There are many, many, many of your political kind out there, to the detriment of individual freedom everywhere.

I just read that the fascists were elected for the first time in Greece elections, it's coming DM and you and your ilk will play a big part of the rise of this global movement of the progressives. All socialists, the Golden Dawn Party now has the same percentage of participation in the Greek Parliament that the Nazis had (7%) when they stormed the streets of cities across Germany in the Reichskristallnacht

Just watch and listen, sound familiar to you? I have no interest in the website here but this is the most complete video I could find of the socialist hate rising in Europe. Your solutions of putting "trust" in the power of government, leads to this and this only.

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/05/07/watch-greek-fascists-storm-confe...

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Definition of 'ilk'
Quote:

Pronoun. Represents a group of items of the same type. Has a connotation of the typed group being of bad or questionable character.

From Urban Dictionary

I disagree with you - but I do not question your character. Am I expecting too much for a similar respect from you? ( I guess so.)

You have expounded statements with little or no basis for these statement you quote leading to solutions to our problems. You may live in the fear of what is happening in other countries. I have lived in the reality of what is/has happened in other countries and worked with credible groups to insure that the same does not happen here.
If our 'government' is not doing the job - it is our fault - because WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. Read your Constitution and the writings of Jefferson and other of our founding fathers. READ - don't depend on what someone has TOLD YOU. You are famous for suggesting books from the 'right' - but I doubt that you have read them in their entirety. There are many areas where believers in the 'right' and 'left' ideologies are on common ground. The inability of our elected leaders to meet and work together for the AMERICAN PEOPLE rather than the corporations and king makers that support their election coffers has hamstrung this country. I realize that no one in this discussion is bound to any oath to tell the truth - as I found out about a person who felt comfortable in changing race and sex for debate sake. I don't know if you are 16 or 80 - but I prefer to discuss issues with one who knows what they are talking about. You do not appear to be one of those persons.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
DM - Definition

This definition is correct.

Insulting me will not help our dialog here; we don’t have to respect each other either. We simply have to be civil. We do disagree on a very fundamental level, you believe in the state and I believe in the Individual. I believe that most of the problems we have are related to the power of the state, you believe vesting more power in the state is the solution. In this, history has shown you completely an utterly wrong. This is not an opinion this is a fact DM. However, I have granted you this; you and your ilk will win.

Remember this DM, the last time the socialists came to world power, they blamed the “rich Jews”, rounded them up, took all their property and put them to unimaginable death. Then they went after anyone that wasn’t like the “perfect race”, or did they not teach this to you in public teacher’s school? They probably taught you that it was a bunch of right wingers that took over the German nation in 1930. Well they were misleading you, it was the socialists that took over, the “progressives” and about 20 million people lost their lives to the great socialist “vision”. It was a particular kind of socialist (fascist) and the communists didn’t like them because they weren’t philosophically “pure” enough, so those socialists killed another 20 million or so people after the war. I guess they didn’t teach you this either because the intellectuals in the good old USA supported their communist friends, the same intellectuals that teach our teachers. Then we come to your favorite topic, Castro. We all know what Castro did don’t we DM? Castro, another great socialist “visionary”. Yet you think that government is somehow illegitimated by its terrific race relations. Well you go tell it to the people that are in those mass graves outside of Havana, I am certain they will be happy to know that all those enslaved races are getting along well.

My respect is earned by those with principles and not given freely to those that would deprive me of my property and freedom. Furthermore, I have no sympathy for pseudo philanthropy using the state as a tool to redistribute the spoils of legalized theft by the “majority”.

BTW, I have read every book I have suggested on these pages and notice with interest that you suggest none, at least none that I can remember. Could it be that it would reveal too much about your intent or simply that you don’t read much or perhaps that your positions are unprincipled? Which is it? Or is it all of them?

Your PTCO attempting to be civil, have a wonderful rest of your day.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Dear Civil PTCO

I've tried to answer your questions. You have avoided these.

Quote:

Please share the plan for non-government services to the American people. Who will be responsible for the planning and implementation of these services? How will these services be monitored? How will these services be paid for? Thanks.

You were the one who used the word ilk when referring to me. Note, I did not use the word when referring to you. Did you graduate from high school? Just asking. Yes - that was intended as an insult. I have students who were better at civil debate and sticking to the discussion without using cliches to couch their answers in their own political 'stance'. You have nothing new to offer - unless you have answers or suggestions to the above questions. I don't think that asking for oversight and/ or monitoring of programs is a socialist approach to our problems. . .but you are entitled to your opinion. Looking forward to answers/suggestions.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
You're correct again DM!

I did use the "ilk" word and I meant it as it was used.

Now, here's your answers:

Please share the plan for non-government services to the American people.

There is no "plan", it's non-governmental so we don't need a "plan".

No one is responsible for delivering the services.

No one will monitor anything because there is nothing to "monitor".

They will be paid for by individuals taking care of themselves, their families and their neighbors. It's called personal responsibility, you do know what this is don't you?

No one will be forced to do anything DM, its a concept called freedom.

You can say I have nothing to offer DM all day long, but it is you that have nothing to offer, except more planning, controlling and spending other people's money. You are the conservative, you want to keep things just the way they are....government dependent.

BTW, you can't insult me DM, it's not possible because....well you are you.

Thanks.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
PTCO

Just what I thought. No plan, no thought, no intelligence. Bye! LOL! No reason to worry about your contribution to democracy - IMO you are certifiably insane.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
LOL - DM

Just what I thought you would say. I don't want to contribute to "democracy" DM, I want to contribute to returning our country to a constitutional republic.

Since you seem to like Eisenhower, here is what he said about statism,

"Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master."

BTW, nice diversion away from your pals' socialist history.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
PTCO seen the "Life of Julia" yet from the Obama camp?

From Womb to Tomb see how Julia uses the Government in every aspect of her life to make her life "better."

http://www.barackobama.com/life-of-julia

On a side note note the family without a Father.. The Father is clearly the Government now...

Wonderful propaganda for the Progressives of America.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Lindsey - This

is a joke, right? They really didn't put this up as a reason to vote FOR Mr. Obama did they? It must be a Republican trick of some kind. ;-)

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Nope that is from the Obama camp....

Truly amazing stuff...

Whos ya daddy? Obama that's who...

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Deleted by poster

.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
PTCO

A small gang wiped out 3000 of our citizens. . .because we were prepared for the 'big' gang (so we thought) and didn't realize that the small gang could do just as much damage. It's not the size of the gang or government - but the integrity of that government.

Quote:

Reducing the size of government will not put people out of work, it will create jobs

Cute statement. Please share the numbers. How many jobs will be created for out of work postal workers?

Quote:

In your world what happened to helping the poor through charity?

Do you really think that the contributions for charities are up in this economy? The first Bush ran on the ideology of neighbor helping neighbor. It just didn't happen!! If we truly exhibited the actions of the Pilgrims and SOME of our founding fathers - we would be able to work together with our neighbor. In my world of reality - contributions and volunteers are down!! Where are you? Individuals with funds are contributing - and they are few. It would be better if the economy was better and more average-earning American citizens could contribute to charity. Talking about charitable giving in this economy where hard working citizens are losing their homes and their jobs in like living in somebodies la-la land,

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Quick little distinction, DM...

...we were d-escalating since 16 years of GOP leadership destroyed the 'big gang', then left the happy shop with a great economy to a philandering, no-character political chump who ignored the 'little gang' for his 8 years as they strengthened & planned, then dumped the problem in someone else's lap. There's some of that integrity you speak of - f**king interns, and whomever else, along with our nation. That POS and his housewife should share a cell at Gitmo...

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
KC

Lol! Oh come on. You can do better than that! Bad morals - surplus economy. Hmmm. Still respected as a leader by most.

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Maybe, DM...

...in your world; never had, or have, any respect for him. Now we suffer his wife; equally as ineffectual. As mentioned, 'his' surplus economy was handed to him by 16 prior years of good leadership. You weren't part of the military (I assume) under him, as he gutted it & the nat'l. intel services, which - and not necessarily bad in some respects - which led directly to his failure to address the rise of Al Queda and refusal to capture/take our Bin Laden the several times he had the chance.

Yours is the typical American short-term memory, in this case. Btw, do you have any 20+ yr. old granddaughters I could spend some time with? I'm 51 and would like to try some things your hero did....sounds just great, doesn't it?

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
KC

You are sick. Don't ever consider coming near anyone in my family. I was alive under FDR! Truman, Ike, - all leaders for their time! Then we had your heroes, Nixon, ineffective Ford, and you have your opinion of the rest. You represent the sick perverted thought that has permeated our society. How disappointing. I thought you had a higher degree of thought to be able to express yourself with a modicum of intelligence.

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Now you know, DM...

...what I think of your hero, Mr. Clinton. Then he had the gall to bald-face lie about it. We've had president who've had affairs, certainly, but none that I know of with young, barely-out-of-college girls. I was making a point; unlike Mr. Clinton, I'm an adult and not interested in bedding young girls. So what is you opinion of him now, Mrs. Lewinsky (and who knows who else)...?

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
KC

Really? You're an adult? Can't reply intelligently to any of the other issues? Sonny boy, I could care less of what you think of Clinton and his sex acts. Black people have families who have worked in the White House for generations. Sally Hemmings was a child when she started bearing children for Thomas Jefferson. Clinton was caught. Unfortunately, the American people do not elect based on bedroom morals. I often think that the current leader of the Senate would have been great friends with J. Edgar Hoover. Grow up!

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Glad you endorse, DM...

...elder men sleeping with young women; Jefferson was the origin of the modern Democratic party - good example. Clinton obviously was a fan; had I been the father of 22 YEAR OLD MONICA LEWINSKY, I'd probably be in jail right now. I DO vote on bedroom morals; as much as possible. Pray - if you have them - your grandchildren never meet and/or succumb to these type of men you so highly admire.

Harry Reid is a homosexual? I didn't know that. Right party, anyway...

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
KC ANDY

My mistake. I'm talking about the minority leader of the Senate. Mr. Cutie Pie. The one who stated his goal was to unseat Obama - and to heck with the needs of the American people. My goodness, his bio says he was born in 1942. He has aged terribly!!

Oops, I didn't realize he was 'closeted'. Sorry.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2008/10/23/new-closeted-...

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Oh - Mitch McConnell, DM...

...yes, he looks like a date for Barney Frank!

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
KC ANDY

LOL! Ran out of discussion facts? Save it - I don't respond to this type of crap. The country has problems - and you go to bedroom/sex/partisanship. Have a nice day.

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Well, DM...

...the fact is a 47-year-old leader of our nation had a sexual relationship w/ a 22-yr. old intern, then lied about it. I think that's very wrong, in your word - crap; you apparently have no problem with it. You've even passed on my point of 'what she were your child?'.

The fact is Thomas Jefferson was one of the founders of the Republican-become-Democratic Party (today's GOP originated as the Federalists). He sired children with Sally Hemming.

I don't know what other facts you wanted to discuss. I do appreciate the first black POTUS is Obama, all-in-all a seemingly decent man, rather than Jesse Jackson, otherwise we could add him to this list. Of course Strom Thurmond never held the Oval Office, or John Edwards either, thank goodness...

I believe Mitt Romney will be an excellent example for our Nation's families to emulate, as is the Obama family, even if he was a bit silver-spooned in his origins.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Jefferson did not have any kids with slaves

That was disproven years ago but the story was never retracted.

Only those that wish to cast aspersions on the Founders use it anymore..

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Thought different, SL...

...never really followed it much and always thought it confirmed, common knowledge. Don't think it really amounts to a hill of beans in the end, but interesting at the very least, whether yea or nay.

Now, if he was President and she was 22 yrs. old, DM would be ok w/ that! ;)

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Lindsey - Jefferson

Sorry to disappoint you on this but this has been proven without any doubt through DNA testing of those wanting to be included in the Jefferson family and known actual members of the Jefferson family.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/

The background history of Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemmings is interesting and worth noting here. Sally was the half sister of Jefferson’s wife, Martha Wayles Skelton (aka Patty). Martha’s father had a relationship with Sally’s mother a slave of Mr. Wayles. It was said that the resemblance of Sally to her half sister Martha was striking. Notwithstanding that slavery itself was an abomination, the fact is that it was quite common for white “masters” to have sexual relationships with their slaves both male and female.

It is said that Jefferson was so grief stricken at his wife death that he didn’t talk to anyone for three months except his daughter Patsy Jefferson. Here is what she said about those dark days.

“He walked almost incessantly night and day, lying down only when nature was completely exhausted on a palette that had been brought in during his long fainting fit. When at last he left his room, he rode out, and from that time he was incessantly on horseback, rambling about on the least frequented roads and just as often through the woods, and those melancholy rambles. I was his constant companion, a solitary witness to many a violent burst of grief.” – Patsy Jefferson, his daughter.

Therefore, given Sally’s resemblance to his dear wife it is likely that Jefferson could not overcome the compelling need to reunite with her through Sally. We don’t know the relationship between Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, it could have been very emotional but it is just difficult to know. Upon Jefferson’s death, he freed all of Sally’s children but allowed the sale of all of his other slaves.

We should all remember that Jefferson and the other Founders of our country were simply men of their time, all with their individual flaws, but they also laid the foundation and legacy that allows for the individual freedom that is currently under constant assault. Without their vision and sacrifice we would not have the freedoms that we have today. The basis for freeing the slaves, women’s right to vote, the voting rights act, all come from the law enshrined in our Constitution.

Veritas
Veritas's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/23/2010
Insight for DM and PTCO

Insightful reading from the actual scientist who conducted the DNA study...
"the main author of the study, Dr. Eugene A. Foster, issued a correction in a letter to the editor in the New York Times: “The genetic findings my collaborators and I reported … do not prove that Thomas Jefferson was the father of one of Sally Heming’s children.  We never made that claim.  Nor do we believe that the Y-chromosome type we found in Hemings’s descent occurs only in the members of the Jefferson family…. This study could not prove anything conclusively….” (New York Times, November 9, 2010).

http://www.rlc8.dcccd.edu/tlblog/?p=1741

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Veritas - I don't know why

I am attempting this but will anyway, back to the top to get out of the single column trap.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Veritas facts mean little when confronted with myths

Even when presented by the Scientist themselves.

btw- I did not have this article. Thanks.. It is truly amazing how a rumor can become fact with little or no evidence of same.

It is apparent that if you have a personal agenda or bias you will believe the flimsiest of "facts" in order to justify that preconceived idea.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
.Veritas - IMHO

Currently my opinion is that Mr. Jefferson likely fathered at least one of Sally's children and likely more. It is not just the DNA evidence that leads me to this opinion but the totality of the evidence. Including but not limited to 1) the blood relation of Sally to Patsy; 2)the reported similarity of the two women 3) Jefferson's insistence that Sally travel to Paris and live with the Jefferson family there 4) the fact that the only slaves freed by Jefferson following his death were Sally's children.

These are just the highlights of things I can recall from the history but there are more. However, I am willing to be open to the possibility that Jefferson did not father Sally's children. Sally was said not to have any other male companion during her entire lifetime. Curious isn't it?

I will read Lindsey's suggestion, "Jefferson Lies".

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
PTCO read the book "The Jefferson Lies"

You will discover differently...

PBS as well as others have an agenda.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1595554599/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=U...

NUK_1
NUK_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/17/2007
David Barton has a bigger agenda than PBS

and his mangling, distortions and inaccuracies about American history are hardly limited to Thomas Jefferson.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Nuk_1

Who's David Barton?

NUK_1
NUK_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/17/2007
PTCO: Barton

Barton is a fundamentalist faux historian who is very popular amongst evangelicals and those who believe the US should be governed as a theocracy. He rose to more prominence in recent years due to being heavily embraced by Glenn Beck.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Nuk_1 - Thanks

I've never heard of him, but then I don't watch/listen to G. Beck either.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Bio without the personal dislike spin on it
PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Thanks Lindsey - So

it's history with a theological spin?

History is a very interesting subject and it can be seen through a many faceted prism, the truth is hard to discern without in-depth study.

I for one like to go to original source (letters, period documents, etc.) to seek historical truth. I don't need others to "interpret" for me. It's a bid harder this way but much more revealing of the characters in this great "play" called life.

I will read "Jefferson Lies", downloaded it to my Kindle tonight.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
That's just it there is no spin

Religious or otherwise.. He uses source documents, letters and accounts not from "historians" but from those that was there and wrote about it... I can't remember how many pages of footnotes there are but I think you will find it an unbiased look at Thomas Jefferson.

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Do you have any specifics Nuk

or just generalizations.. I find David to be very well informed and his statements and writings backed up by factual accounts...unlike many here that is.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
D. Barton/another point of view

Some feel that David Barton is a respected historian. Here is another point of view. Michelle Bachman lost her credibility when she shared that the 'black' family was in better shape during slavery. Records of slaveholder, historical documents, slave narratives, and historian accounts from the period of slavery discount that statement. Children, 'husbands', wives were sold during slavery at the will of the slaveowner - and families were separated on a regular basis. What has contributed to the current problem in the black community is a remnant of slavery that did not reward hard work and initiative;and a belief that 'blacks' were to be treated and 'bred' as animals. Jim Crow and unequal treatment based on skin color was what added to this. (Even when educated in the finest schools that America had to offer and 'cleaned up to be acceptable to 'whites'- blacks still had to sit in the back of the bus, change trains when entering the south, etc. It took leaders like MLK who preached based on the fact that love heals, and violence accomplishes nothing but hate - that this nation has progressed beyond the time of slavery. If all Americans had been included in the history of this nation based on honest research, we would not be divided by 'race'. Historians who continue to distort American history appear to be doing so so that one 'race' in this country will always feel superior. Oral Roberts University is not recognized as being an educational institution that has taught history of our great country honestly - or treated all American students equally.

http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/barton-s-bunk-religious-right-historian...

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
PFAW hard left progressive site DM

I could go to the Heritage Foundation and find just the opposite. Would you accept that as credible?

Not sure where you are going with this one... You start off on Barton go to Bachmann and end with Slavery...?? What does that have to do with David's work on Thomas Jefferson? Why do you think it is not credible?
Is it an ingrained bias or what you have "learned".. Veritas has provided extensive info for you which at the very least cast doubt on the "facts" as you see them.

What is your response?

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
Lindsey

I've responded with other sites that have additional information. There is no 'who is right who is wrong' here, just sharing information. One might find it interesting reading the media reports during this era. It's history. Some family members have welcomed their 'black cousins', some have denied them. Nothing new here.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Lindsey - Will do

thanks

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
DNA - DON'T LIE!

The children of Thomas Jefferson.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=thomas+jefferson's+children&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
DM you must use something other then rumor sites...

There is no DNA evidence for Thomas Jefferson... There is a Y Chromosome that MIGHT..that's MIGHT have come from the Jefferson FAMILY.

There is no evidence of Thomas Jefferson fathering a child by any slave.

http://www.ashbrook.org/articles/mayer-hemings.html

S. Lindsey
S. Lindsey's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/31/2008
Don't forget China kcc

Without him China would have taken at least another 10-20 years to have the technology to drop a MIRVed warhead in your backyard.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Online
Joined: 10/30/2005
KC/ Lindsey

Remember Nixon?

kcchiefandy
kcchiefandy's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/18/2009
Good point, Lindsey...

...as he didn't help but imagine their agressiveness would have eventually landed them the technology. I'm uncertain we could have, or can, stop them w/o a major strike, etc... They have us, esp. now, so behind the eight ball, as we are so entwined with them via business dealings & massive debt to them, etc... I'm amazed we haven't just walked away from Taiwan yet...

Remember that Navy eavesdropping/surveilence plane that they captured a few years back (was it shot down, or mech. failure? Can't remember.) and they eventually let them go? If it'd been 20 years earlier we'd have had half a fleet sitting off their shores; but now, we just had to say 'please' real nice-like...

NUK_1
NUK_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/17/2007
DM: Yes, charitable contributions are in fact UP
Davids mom wrote:

Do you really think that the contributions for charities are up in this economy? The first Bush ran on the ideology of neighbor helping neighbor. It just didn't happen!! If we truly exhibited the actions of the Pilgrims and SOME of our founding fathers - we would be able to work together with our neighbor. In my world of reality - contributions and volunteers are down!! Where are you? Individuals with funds are contributing - and they are few. It would be better if the economy was better and more average-earning American citizens could contribute to charity. Talking about charitable giving in this economy where hard working citizens are losing their homes and their jobs in like living in somebodies la-la land,

In 2011, giving increased by 3.8%
http://www.givingusareports.org/products/GivingUSA_2011_ExecSummary_Prin...

Not everyone is like bozo Joe Biden and his measly 1/3rd of 1% "giving" which was actually pretty high for him and his wife compared to their average.