She warned us . . .

Cal Thomas's picture

Sarah Palin deserves an apology. When she said that the new healthcare law would lead to “death panels” deciding who gets life-saving treatment and who does not, she was roundly denounced and ridiculed.

Now we learn, courtesy of one of the ridiculers — The New York Times — that she was right. Under a new policy not included in the law for fear the administration’s real end-of-life game would be exposed, a rule issued by the recess-appointed Dr. Donald M. Berwick, administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, calls for the government to pay doctors to advise patients on options for ending their lives. These could include directives to forgo aggressive treatment that could extend their lives.

This rule will inevitably lead to bureaucrats deciding who is “fit” to live and who is not. The effect this might have on public opinion, which by a solid majority opposes Obamacare, is clear from an email obtained by the Times.

It is from Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), who sent it to people working with him on the issue. Oregon and Washington are the only states with assisted-suicide laws, a preview of what is to come at the federal level if this new regulation is allowed to stand.

Blumenauer wrote in his November email: “While we are very happy with the result, we won’t be shouting it from the rooftops because we aren’t out of the woods yet. This regulation could be modified or reversed, especially if Republican leaders try to use this small provision to perpetuate the ‘death panel’ myth.”

Ah, but it’s not a myth, and that’s where Palin nailed it. All inhumanities begin with small steps; otherwise the public might rebel against a policy that went straight to the “final solution.” All human life was once regarded as having value, because even government saw it as “endowed by our Creator.” This doctrine separates us from plants, microorganisms and animals.

Doctors once swore an oath, which reads in part: “I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.” Did Dr. Berwick, a fan of rationed care and the British National Health Service, ever take that oath? If he did, it appears he no longer believes it.

Do you see where this leads? First the prohibition against abortion is removed and “doctors” now perform them. Then the assault on the infirm and elderly begins. Once the definition of human life changes, all human lives become potentially expendable if they don’t measure up to constantly “evolving” government standards.

It will all be dressed up with the best possible motives behind it and sold to the public as the ultimate benefit. The killings, uh, terminations, will take place out of sight so as not to disturb the masses who might have a few embers of a past morality still burning in their souls. People will sign documents testifying to their desire to die, and the government will see it as a means of “reducing the surplus population,” to quote Charles Dickens.

When life is seen as having ultimate value, individuals and their doctors can make decisions about treatment that are in the best interests of patients. But when government is looking to cut costs as the highest good and offers to pay doctors to tell patients during their annual visits that they can choose to end their lives rather than continue treatment, that is more than the proverbial camel’s nose under the tent. That is the next step on the way to physician-assisted suicide and, if not stopped, government-mandated euthanasia.

It can’t happen here? Based on what standard? Yes it can happen in America, and it will if the new Republican class in Congress doesn’t stop it.

[Cal Thomas is America’s most widely syndicated op-ed columnist, appearing in more than 600 national newspapers. He is the author of more than 10 books and is a FOX News political contributor since 1997. Email Cal Thomas at tmseditors@tribune.com.] ©2010 TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.

Joe Kawfi
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Loughner voter registration document is faked

BAD LINK, REMOVED FOR VIRUS

This is what Liberals stoop to for political gain. They have no morals.

Robert W. Morgan
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Try Drudge, it is more relevant than Daily Kos

There you learn who this loser really is.

AtHomeGym
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Bacon & "Sides"

How about NEITHER SIDE! I saw & heard a Psyciatrist/Criminal Profiler/Lawyer reiew this case and after discussing behavioral traits,made this statement: This is not a case of political ideology gone bad; it is a case of an undiagnosed Psychotic condition. Can't we all be satisfied with such a statement from a medical/legal professional?

PTC Observer
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AHG - I

I doubt it.

NUK_1
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What is your malfunction?

Seriously, how can you below slime with this garbage? You are generally better than this on everything I might agree/disagree with, but this is just trash.

Main Stream
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Even Garbrielle Giffords knew Palin was taking...

...the rhetoric too far:

“They really need to realize that the rhetoric and firing people up, and, you know, even things for example, we’re on Sarah Palin’s targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gunsight over our district. when people do that, you gotta realize there’s consequences to that action.”–Gabrielle Giffords

scribbler
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Broken record...

These lefties are all alike...

Like a broken record--

"left is right... right is wrong..."
"left is right... right is wrong..."
"left is right... right is wrong..."

"Surrender your liberties and your rights to sefl-defense"

"There is nothing to fear"
"Nothing can go wrong.... go wrong... go wrong..."

I wonder if any of the journalistic "experts"...
....Like al-Krugman and al-Friedman....
...Have they seen the DEMOCRAT LEADERSHIP COUNCIL "TARGETING LIST" MAP...??

Nine... Count 'em... 9
Little cutie-pie bullseye targets....
...painted on the House districts the DIM-DEMS thought they might win...??

Being full of lefty-knee-jerk-idiotic-talking point bilge is one thing...

But the intellectual dis-honesty and instantaneous drive-thru ignorance displayed here is monumental....

Have a nice day.

Chris P. Bacon
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Try and keep up, scribbler

Observerofu already posted that Republican Rapid Response talking point false equivalency.

You guys need to coordinate better.

Jackwagon.

scribbler
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A Bacon echo.... knew it

Some of us actually DONT NEED someone else to write the script....

Why don't you try some objective analysis...??
No wait.... I forgot...

-- That's against the lefty rules of the road...

Do your own homework...
You might learn a thing or two...

Chris P. Bacon
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True, scribbler
scribbler wrote:

Some of us actually DONT NEED someone else to write the script....

Why don't you try some objective analysis...??
No wait.... I forgot...

-- That's against the lefty rules of the road...

Do your own homework...
You might learn a thing or two...

I quite agree, there are some conservatives here who are capable of independent thought and don't need someone else to "write the script"...

You, madame, are not one of them.

scribbler
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Bacon's [TYPICALLY] bad assumptions - Rest My Case
Chris P. Bacon wrote:

You, madame (sic), are not one of them.

If you need a lesson in gender identity---

I think my size 12 boots would serve well enough for emphasis...

Do your homework.... lightweight...

Chris P. Bacon
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Scribbler... very sorry

Please accept my apologies.

With your soft, effeminate posting style and oh-so-precious posturing, I was certain you were a lady.

scribbler
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BACON - Amazing gracious....

You can't even issue a civil straight-up apology without being an @-hole...
...NOT ACCEPTED...

You really should go pro...

CNN, MSNBC, NYT, LAT,
WaPO.... HuffPO.... Daily KOS

They are all recruiting your ilk...
Likely good money....

Don't let the door...

Observerofu
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Daily Kos-"Dead to me"

http://hillbuzz.org/2011/01/08/my-congresswoman-voted-against-nancy-pelo...

Just saying.

Be careful throwing stones when you live in a glass house.

PTC Observer
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Main - Give it

I am not a Palin fan, but give it a rest, let's talk about this later and continue our prayers for the victims and families involved.

Sound reasonable?

Cyclist
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This is most disturbing...

I pray that she and the others injured will recover and sympathies to the families of the others that were killed.

PTC Observer
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Main Street

I have to say that your statement here is clearly the most idiotic I have seen on this board.

Georgia Patriot
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Time to Pray for Her

May God guide the surgeons hands. -GP

Davids mom
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GP

I'm with you on this one. . .and it's time for prayer for all of the citizens in the US. I'm watching TV now - and this has shocked and hurt all of us. The Governor was very gracious in her remarks. And she let the country know that the President called and offered his resources in a NON-PARTISAN sharing of Americans in power working together during a crisis. We need to tone down the political rhetoric - and be more civil in our communication regarding our areas of disagreement. Sometimes rhetoric causes those who are limited in common sense to act without reason. A suspect has been apprehended. Prayers continue for all.

AtHomeGym
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GP & the Congesswoman

She is out of surgery and expected to recover.

Georgia Patriot
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That's Great News!

Alleged shooter http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4 Check his reading list, Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto? Sure doesn't sound like anyone that would listen to Palin, Beck or Rush. Hmmmmm... -GP

Chris P. Bacon
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Protect the Queen! Protect the Hive!
Georgia H8riot wrote:

DERP DERP I feel this is just an awful tragedy and should not be used for any political purposes. -GP

Georgia H8riot wrote:

Liberal Leftwing shooter? DERP DERP DERP "he was left wing, quite liberal." -GP

Georgia H8riot wrote:

Alleged shooter DERP DERP Sure doesn't sound like anyone that would listen to Palin, Beck or Rush. Hmmmmm... -GP

Jackwagon.

Georgia Patriot
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Intellectual Dishonesty

My responses came after your typical left-wing rant of blaming the right for everthing wrong in America. You have ZERO facts that this nutjob was anything more than a confused schizophrenic and yet it is somehow Palins/Beck/Limbaugh's fault. What are dishonest loser you are. Why don't you just run on off to Namby-Pamby Land and see if you can find some Honesty....Jackwagon. -GP

Chris P. Bacon
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H8riot

I noticed some disturbing similarities between you and the shooter.

The shooter listed Ayn Rand as one of his favorite authors....just like you.
The shooter made several incoherent rambling statements about returning the United States to the gold standard....just like you.

Now, we also know the following about the shooter:
Registered Republican
Gun Owner
Calls women who have had abortion "terrorists"
Hates Democrats enough to put a bullet in one.

In the interest of comparison completeness, please tell us if you are A) a registered republican, B) a gun owner, C) anti-abortion, and D) hate Democrats enough to consider shooting one.

H8riot, you've probably got more in common with the shooter than virtually anyone else in Fayette county

Just a quick heads-up: the next time you go off on one of your periodic anti-Fed gold standard rants, my stock reply will be "Hey, you know? That guy that shot that poor Congresswoman felt the same way you did!"

Georgia Patriot
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Crispy's Intellectual Dishonesty Continues

Do you fear conservatives so much that you have to make a feeble attempt to use this tragedy for Political purposes? Pathetic. You have a few things correct 1)I am a proud conservative 2)I am a Proud Oathkeeping defender of the 2nd, served Honorably with Expert Bagdes M14/M16/Grenade plus. You also have a few things terribly wrong. I would never resort to violence but would defend (even you) if I was near you and a terrorist act endangered. And why drag your socialist fiat currency into this? Run out of ideas? And I "hate Democrats enough to consider shooting one"? Slanderous. Grow up small man/woman?.... Here's a Klennex...Jackwagon. -GP

Chris P. Bacon
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H8riot

I don't fear conservatives, but I despise extremists such as yourself. Make no mistake, I do consider you an extremist. Your positions are held by a very very small minority of people in America, and I thank God daily for that.

As I told AHG yesterday, you are absolutely right that I am "politicizing" this tragedy: it was a political assassination attempt, something your feeble mind is unwilling or unable to comprehend.

You wanna play the "proud veteran" card with me? Fine and dandy, I'm a veteran too, like about 40% of the other regulars on this site.

People should be wary of extremists like you. What troubles me the most is that you seem to have the extraordinary ability to rationalize the most extreme behavior.

If a bomb ever went off in Fayette county, I'd dial 911 in a heartbeat and tell the police to visit the Citizen to get your personal information, because I truly feel more than any other single person in Fayette county, you alone would be the person most likely to rationalize that sort of behavior.

You claim you'd never resort to violence. I quite frankly do not believe you.

You have an awful lot in common with Jared Loughner, whether you choose to admit it or not. More than anyone else in this county, in my opinion. For all intents and purposes, you could have been his spiritual Godfather.

Political extremists such as yourself are a pestilence on this county.

Georgia Patriot
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Wrong Again!

This tragedy was not political but the socialist left(including you) is trying to make it so. And call 911 and report me? Are you nuts? You had better hope there are ones like me left to protect you. We will end the slide to socialism not through violence but through the ballot box. -GP

Chris P. Bacon
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“Don't politicize this tragedy!”

Like I said before, you and your kind can rationalize anything. That's why most people refer to you as an extremist.

Good article addressing your "It's not political! DERP!" whining “Don't politicize this tragedy!”

The money quote:
What we have here is an attempted assassination of a politician by an insane crank at a political event, in a state where the political discourse has been an unrelenting howl of eliminationist rhetoric and characterization of anyone to the left of Genghis Khan as a traitor and enemy of the state…and now, when six (including a nine year old girl) lie dead and another fourteen are wounded, now suddenly we're concerned that it is rude and politicizing a tragedy to point out that the right wing has produced a toxic atmosphere that pollutes our politics with hatred and the rhetoric of violence?

To which I say, AMEN

PTC Observer
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Bacon - but

if your premise is true, given the political discourse over the last few years, why is it we don't see this happening on a daily basis?

Wouldn't we have more "political" violence, death, and destruction? Wouldn't we see burned buildings, and shootings everywhere?

So, if your premise is correct, where is the evidence?

Now if you can't provide this evidence then either you are attempting to inflame passions or you have another agenda. What is it? What's your point?

Observerofu
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Has anyones noticed Bacon's rhetoric lately?

speaking of hate. Insults and outright threats.

I think the trans-fats have gone to his head

Davids mom
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GP

Unfortunately - the words this individual has shared follows the 'thinking' of some of the posters on many blogs. Most educated Americans have read Mein Kamph and The Communist Manifesto. Reading a book does not mean that you agree with everything the author has said - but it means you are aware of the authors 'thought''. I'm sure we'll learn more about the suspect.

Georgia Patriot
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After listening

to his youtube rant it is obvious this a VERY disturbed individual. I have also read Mein Kamph, the Communist Manifesto, the Motorcycle Diaries, Mao's Little Red Book, etc, but would never list any of them as my reading on a website. That being said I feel this is just an awful tragedy and should not be used for any political purposes. -GP

Davids mom
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GP

Also on his reading list - Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, etc., etc., etc. Fact: A disturbed individual committed a heinous crime today. Let's stop trying to tie this tragedy to right or left wing loonies. Let's try to calm down - all of us - and continue to have a civil discourse about the situation in our country. The vitriol/hateful rhetoric has a consequence - a divided country. There is no room for violence in politics. Gandhi and MLK fought hard to show us that the non-violent process is most effective.

Georgia Patriot
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I'm trying

but something about the socialist left's assaults (never letting a crisis go to waste?) causes my fingers to type the truth! You are right about Gandhi and MLK. God Bless. -GP

Joe Kawfi
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Rep. Giffords

My prayers go out to the families impacted by the sensless trajedy in Arizona.

Observerofu
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Mainstream and Bacon shame on you

our prayers are with the families.

PTC Observer
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Observerofu

Please give it a rest, please.

I agree we should be all in thoughtful prayer for those victims and families.

We can all talk about this next week or something.

Sound reasonable?

roundabout
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Sounds reasonable, but...

Not gonna happen!

First, most people don't believe in ESP, where prayer by sinners helps, nor do thoughts! Second, Do you want to bet that Limbaugh and company will not say anything about it this week? There is money there, and idiots to rile up.

Anyway, I understand this fellow who did the shooting thinks the 2012 prophecy will happen, but if he really did he could just wait a year and he wouldn't have had to shoot anyone!

Besides, I don't know one Televangelist or fundamentalist church who does not say that the end-time will be in their lifetime. They don't describe in much detail what "end-time" means.

Observerofu
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PTO thought I was

but maybe you should be the judge sheese.

AtHomeGym
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Main Scream, Palin & Shooting

Your comment is typical of your slime-ball political posturing. Instead of conveying best wishes to the Congresswoman and others wounded by the unidentified young gunman,you've just gotta make it a political issue. Shame on you.

Chris P. Bacon
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"make it a political issue"

For Christ's sake, Gym,it was a political assassination attempt!

This shooting had everything to do with politics.

PTC Observer
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Bacon - do we

I can see your point but do we really know this for sure?

I think the guy is just deranged; he makes no sense on his YouTube page.

Why don’t we wait to see what this is all about before making such a claim? We have a long way to go before that happens.

My point is that if a deranged man attacked Bill Graham would that make it a religious thing automatically? Or a guy attacks students at WV Tech, does that make it an anti-education thing? I don't think so.

Why do you choose to inflame things even more? What problem do you think you are solving here?

Georgia Patriot
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Research

There is enough info out there to see this guy was clearly deranged. Obviously the left is trying to use this crisis for political purposes. Mark my words, pretty soon it will be the guns fault and another attack on the 2nd ammendment will begin. -GP

Main Stream
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really? shame on me? ha!

...shame on Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the right-wing nutjobs for instilling and promoting violence on others, in the name of their misguided political ideologies.

Mike King
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Simply Disgraceful

Anyone who would make a comment that vile has neither the courage nor concern for their fellow man to do so without cover. Even those of the cop killer Ayers ilk do so in the open.

I could be wrong.

AtHomeGym
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MS & Violence

"instilling & promoting violence." SHOW ME WHERE THAT HAPPENED!

Chris P. Bacon
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Just a coincidence, right? Right?
AtHomeGym wrote:

"instilling & promoting violence." SHOW ME WHERE THAT HAPPENED!

Sarah Palin's website sticks a gunsite target on Arizona and lists Rep. Giffords name, and the verbiage "1 down, 17 to go"

Shooter shoots Rep. Giffords

Just an unfortunate coincidence, right? Right?

PTC Observer
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Bacon - hack job

come on Bacon, even you can figure this one out.

Let's stop with this until all have recovered from this tragedy.

Davids mom
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Palin Websites

Interesting - some have been taken down - and on her fundraising page - she offers her sincere condolences to the Congresswoman’s family.

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Palin who?

I suspect that she wishes that she never had that "targeted" poster. It could become a liability if she attempted to make a run in 2012. (eyes rolling)

Of course she did say during her Alaskan adventure show "why would anyone ever want be in some stuffy political office."

PTC Observer
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Cyclist - Palin

IMO, she will be a king maker in the 2012 election. I don't think she will have the support, even from the TP to run. However, she can decide who will be nominated that's for sure.

roundabout
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onserver

Same kind of influence she had for McCain!

She is a good sounding board for all the nuts and their impossible ideas!

AtHomeGym
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ptc-o & Kingmaker Palin

Disagree. Do not think she will have any major influence in selection of the R 2012 candidate.

PTC Observer
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AHG -

LOL

Cyclist
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You're correct PTC Observer....

but I sure hope she doesn't interfere or becomes a liability for that candidate. We literally can not afford that.

Chris P. Bacon
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Down for maintenance...

I believe they took some of the webpages down for maintenance.

If you'll notice Mainstream's initial post, Sarah Palin's gunsite graphic had the verbiage "1 down, 17 to go!"....I suppose they're updating it to "2 down, 16 to go!"

In a tangentially related event, some wiseass created a Facebook page for the alleged shooter, and made him a Facebook fan of Barack Obama, Saul Alinsky and Nancy Pelosi. Within minutes there were over 100 comments over on Sarah Palin's page from her supporters "SEE? I TOLD YOU!".

Sheep.

(Facebook took the parody page down shortly afterwards).

PTC Observer
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Bacon - control

yourself please, give it one big try. I know you can do it.

Georgia Patriot
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Left Wing Liberal Shooter??

A woman named Caitie Parker has been tweeting that she went to school with Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' alleged shooter Jared Loughner and that he had met Giffords previously.

Also," he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag. I haven't seen him in person since '07 in a sign language class" and "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

-GP

roundabout
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Congresswoman shot- a federal case.

Look for trouble against the ultra-extreme right-wing screwballs who now for years have gone about as far as possible with talk radio, gun-slinging and bomb sight graphs, and newspaper columns, to belittle and damage all politicians not on their side.

Our sympathy for those killed and wounded in gun-sight alley Arizona has nothing to do with being quiet right now about such detractors.

A whole platoon of people were today found in Mexico with no heads. This is caused by the same reasons some people here will do anything with their influence to become rich---il-formed blabbering and upsetting radical nut cases.

Davids mom
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Roundabout - Mexico

I shuddered at the comparison of yesterdays tragedy with the decapitated bodies in Mexico - but maybe we better realize that the Sheriff in Arizona has a point, Words and ideas are powerful - and must be used to convey truth by responsible leaders. The words in our Constitution have been used to correct the wrongs of some of the misinterpretation of those words throughout our history. Sarah Palin's misuse of words is coming back to haunt her. (I don't believe she foresaw this tragedy - but words used regarding violent acts can be dangerous.) Those who manipulate words and ideas to 'rile' up the 'people' to do their will or create fear are dangerous to a free society. If we look at the history of effective leaders - they had the gift if using words to convey ideas that controlled the masses. The battle of words is on in the global media. We, the people, must not be manipulated. We must always seek the truth. One ideology does not have all the 'truth' in a free society. An educated - not indoctrinated - population is essential to a free society. Let's look for the truth in this situation - and refuse to be used by 'talking points' or media 'pundits'.

Chris P. Bacon
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Demagoguery at its worst

You expect a great deal of ugly fact-free spittle-flecked rhetoric from the likes of Cal Thomas, but this column sets a new standard for shameless demagoguery.

Cal Thomas uses all the fringe-right scare tactics in a pathetic attempt to equate discussing a DNR order with your doctor with Palin's pathetic "the gummint wants to pay doctors to pull the plug on granny!"

NUK_1
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Cal Thomas....

How this guy is nationally syndicated makes me weep for my country.

I ignored his spew long ago, but it's sad to see that his column of pathetic ignorance and any lack of logical reasoning still gets distributed. I guess even the dumbest of fundies can read and PERHAPS comprehend, though that shocks me too. Obviously, there's a "market" for Cal Thomas out there, and that sucks.

roundabout
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NUK

Try reading Neal "the deal" Boortz column in today's paper if you think Cal Thomas is a nutcake.

He defends the Constitution as written---slavery, 3/5 population count for Negroes and none for Indians, no women's rights, property owners vote, and all.

I'll bet he could defend the US Supreme Court deciding how Florida's Supreme Court can count their votes!! Ask Gore!

Boortz isn't even an entertainer, he is a trouble maker.

NUK_1
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Already familiar with Boortz

Been in the ATL area for long enough to have seen/heard Boortz be ultra-left, then ultra-right, then reincarnate as a libertarian, all in the name of $$$ and radio stations ratings. More power to him on that but I don't take a lot of what he says too seriously since I know he's not too principled unless it comes to getting himself over with the public. The Fair Tax books are exercises in simplicity/stupidity that somehow won over a lot of Repubs, so you have to admit that Boortz knows how to market himself extremely well. The guy has gotten rich from a small radio station and being an abrasive shock-jock into a millionaire. Great for him.

I'd put Palin right into the same category except Boortz can at least back up some of the stuff he spouts and can do it well at times. Palin has no clue what she is talking about and it shows. Even the most Repubs of the Repubs are trying to get some distance away from her right now. Wait until Michele Bachman officially announces her run for Prezbo and then Palin will be second-hand garbage that doesn't get the same media hype.

AtHomeGym
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Nuk & Boortz

Pretty much agree with your assessment of Boortz. Rude & crude, but usually pretty accurate with statements--opinions are just that-opinions. Sure don't find many folk willing to take him on in a serious debate. Can't hardly argue with success.
Bachman & Palin: neither electable--just noisemakers. Personally, I'd like to see Jon Huntsman Jr get into the race--Plusses: successful businessman,twice-elected as Gov of Utah, Diplomat (current Ambassador to China), speaks 2 dialects of Chinese, no skeletons. Minus: Mormon. Doesn't bother me personally, but it does some folk.
Gov Mitch Daniel, Indiana would be a prime candidate but claims no interest.

Joe Kawfi
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Krispie

If it was such a whiz-bang directive, why did Obozo put the kaibosh on it?
hmmmmmm.......

Chris P. Bacon
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Very simple Joe

President Obama decided it wasn't worth spending the political capital necessary to defend the DNR advisory.

When you look at the big picture, DNR advisories are a very very small component of health care reform that has gathered an inordinate amount of attention.

President Obama's team made the calculated decision that it simply wasn't worth the time or effort to defend.

I can't say I blame them. I've got a medical power-of-attorney already in place, as does everyone in my immediate family over the age of 50. Do your family members have one?

Joe Kawfi
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Wrong again Krispie

"President Obama's team made the calculated decision that it simply wasn't worth the time or effort to defend."

That's pure hogwash. The administration was found to have been trying to implement a probram that Americans soundly rejected. They are death panels and everyone knows it. Americans just aren't as dumb as the libs try to make them out to be.

BTW, the plans I have made with my family are none of your beeswax.

Chris P. Bacon
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What "everyone knows"...

I get such a kick when you and your kind are reduced to lecturing us about what "everyone knows"!

Kinda like "everyone knows" that God cursed Sarah Palin's womb with defective children as punishment her unrepentant evil ways, don'tcha know?

I do, however, wish to apologize to you about asking if your loved ones had medical powers-of-attorney. After I wrote the post, I remembered that you have to be of sound mind in order to have an enforceable order, which of course would disqualify you and all those that share your rancid inbred DNA.

roundabout
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No camel's nose into the tent!

I have read the section of the health bill about doctor/patient counseling as to decisions to be made by the patient and no one else, unless impossible for the patient to make the decision, and that then can be made by a relative only. No death panel involved.
This information generally is to be made ahead of need.

No panel will decide what factors cause prevention of treatment.

Currently some ill people lie unconscious for months on life support and no one will decide what to do nor how to pay for it. The worst that can happen is removing life support for brain-dead people by permission of the patient in writing or the nearest of kin.

The fear of the government deliberately killing old people have seen too many films like "Soylent Green," starring Charlton Heston!

There are also a few nuts who can't bring themselves to even write a will!

birdman
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Roundabout, your facts fall on deaf ears

Cal Thomas, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, and everyone's favorite Sarah can only enflame the right wing. Facts are not part of it. Too bad. Most of us who actually consider the potential end of our lives have already written living wills and DNR orders. If someone has a life ending illness, this type of consideration is paramount. My Mother in Law died of Cancer and had a DNR. When she went into failure one of the paramedics wanted to revive her which would have resulted in her last days being comatose on life support. The other literally pulled him off yelling that she had a DNR. It was a horrible scene for the family. She had already taken care of her end of life decisions. Imagine the angst for a family member who now must make the decision for a loved one.
But the Repub wingnuts need the emotional argument. To actually support paid counseling for those on medicare would be to support the Affordable Care Act (yeah, that's the real name). They can't do that so they let Brainiac Sarah lead the charge.
But if the Repubs really opposed "death panels," they'd rail against the Health Insurance industry. You know, those big companies that deny coverage, throw people off their insurance if the care gets too expensive, deny treatment if the predicted results don't meet their "criteria for success," deny treatment due to a "pre-existing condition," etc. Now those are real "death panels." They actually decide who lives and who dies. Yet they want to totally trash a law that has corrected some of those "death panel" decisions, and never, NOT ONCE does ANYONE speak out about people dying due to denied insurance because the hugely profitable insurance companies don't want to dip into their profits and save anyone's life.
Actually, a question, exactly what parts of the Affordable Care Act do people object to, and why? No one really addresses the actual act, only the Fox talking points (most of which are not correct).

Cyclist
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Really bird?

Actually, a question, exactly what parts of the Affordable Care Act do people object to, and why? No one really addresses the actual act, only the Fox talking points (most of which are not correct).

I could have sworn I heard that there were a few court cases concerning the "Commerce Clause" thingy. I suspect the "supremes" will ultimately decide.

Now tell me where in the "act" does it acknowledge how the actual cost of health care will be reduced? How will it roll back the cost of MRI's, EKG's, surgeries, band aids, in others words, all the components of health care? Will it rollback salaries of those in the medical field? How about the financial incentives to invest in new technologies will that too be capped?

I'll tell you what I do see a 40% excise tax on so called "Cadillac" plans to pay for it.

birdman
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Cyclist, have you ACTUALLY read the bill?

It seems your only objection is money. You really should actually research the bill and not just listen to Sarah. The CBO estimates a deficit reduction of $145 billion over 10 years. The CBO estimates a reduction in Medicare premiums for seniors. 30 plus million getting health care. Insurance companies required to spend 85% of premiums on direct health cost. The implementation of insurance co-ops to increse competition. Etc. As to insurance costs, mine have gone up yearly since Bush became President. In 2000 I had free health care. I now pay abot $400 per month. This all before the Affordable Care Act. And who pays for all the uninsured when they flood our emergency rooms for basic care?

Interesting fact.....our company's health care insurer's CEO made $128 million in 2008 for a single years compensation! Guessing lots of proceedures denied to justify that salary package. Now that's a death panel!

Food for thought, this bill should lead to a healthier population. A healthier population is more productive. More productive population adds to the economy.

I suspect I will see some tax increase to pay for this. But I do believe I'll see more benefit than cost.

Cyclist
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bird,

And your focus is only on the insurance side. How does this bill - actually it's the law of the realm - actually reduce the cost of medical care? Its primary focus is on the insurance side. And yes, I have read the CBO estimates but remember that's based on the premise of this forced "insurance" thingy that's currently being challenged. If that challenge is successful this whole thing starts to unravel.

Oh, about the uninsured and hitting the emergency floor. That's still going to happen and we are still going to pay for that. That population simply does not have the wherewithal to buy insurance even the government sponsored stuff.

As for those evil insurance companies and their "profits" let me point out that this nation spends $282 million an hour on health care. If one applies the insurance industry profits - about $12.2 Billion a year - to the health care dollar stream it would only provide health care for 43 hours. So taking the those profits off the table and we are still faced with incredibly expensive health care.

Healthier population? Yeah, posters at food chains of 20 or more will really make a difference.

My fear is this whole thing is going to quickly get out of control. Insurance rates are going to rise in order to cover all the mandates associated with this law. And I can hear the future uproar and more finger pointing at the insurance companies. And when they can no longer make a profit in this risk endeavor they will exit and then there's nothing to buffer that $10,000 out-patient procedure.

But hey, I guess someone that flies a "bus" can better afford paying more. Us earthbound folks will struggle with $4 to $5 a gallon gasoline soon.

BTW, Sarah who? (eyes rolling)

AtHomeGym
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Cy, Bird, & Insurance

Oh,I see change already---healthcare premium for 2011 up 32%, co-pay to see a specialist up 17%. Now that's change you can suck up!

roundabout
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GYM

THE REASON we must have a change in health insurance! Costs gone wild.

The USA can't survive in a country where the "health" industry will soon be a third of our economy if allowed to continue as it was.

AtHomeGym
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Roundsnout & Insurance

Changing the number of those who can be insured and criteria and length of insurance in no way lowers the cost of care.

Chris P. Bacon
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In theory, you're wrong Gym, but...

In theory, you're wrong Gym. If I'm an insurance company with x amount of people covered, and I all of a sudden have, say, 20% more people covered, that gives me additional leverage when negotiating reimbursement rates with, say, hospitals. (As an aside, I was hospitalized recently and was absolutely astounded with the discount my insurance company had with the hospital).

The reality, sadly, is probably more in line with your position.

PTC Observer
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AHG - If

If we can predict the future based on the past, we can predict that anything the government touches will go up in cost.

No government social program of which I am aware has ever shrunk in size and scope or not increased in cost. Most key social programs are underwater and continue to run deep deficits that we are funding using freely printed money.

I can't see why this program should have any outcome that would be different.

birdman
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Ok Cyclist, this whole health thing is a mess

Here is a copy of the Nixon Whitehouse tapes regarding HMO's:

"This is a transcript of the 1971 conversation between President Richard Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman that led to the HMO act of 1973:
John D. Ehrlichman: “On the … on the health business …”
President Nixon: “Yeah.”
Ehrlichman: “… we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, ‘Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the President thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred percent.’”
President Nixon: “Well, what’s … what’s the judgment?”
Ehrlichman: “Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly is that we go with it.”
President Nixon: “All right.”
Ehrlichman: “And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we have in the whole office.”
President Nixon: “Say that I … I … I’d tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not too keen on any of these damn medical programs.”
Ehrlichman: “This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am …”
President Nixon: [Unclear.]
Ehrlichman: “This … this is a …”
President Nixon: “I don’t [unclear] …”
Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”
President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”
Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”
President Nixon: [Unclear.]
Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”
President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]
Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”
President Nixon: “Not bad.”
[Source: University of Virginia Check - February 17, 1971, 5:26 pm - 5:53 pm, Oval Office Conversation 450-23. Look for: tape rmn_e450c.]"

As you can see when the whole HMO issue came forward even Nixon realized it was about profit not health care.

The insurance industry is simply "profiting" itself out of business. The health care industry is messed up. The time is coming when health insurance will be for only the elite. This will result in your greatest fear, public health.
If you look at what insurance companies pay compared to what a doctor charges you will understand. Here is an example. My wife had surgery. The doctor bill was $21,000. The insurance company paid $3500. Only 1/7 of the bill! (I paid nothing). If I had been uninsured I would have been on the hook for $21,000. How is this a reasonable and sane system? Even you point out the unbelievable cost of health care. It is draining the economy. Over 50% of personal bankruptcy's are due to health care costs (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5530Y020090604), although FactCheck.org did dispute this to some degree in Dec. 08.

If we insure 30 million more, it will reduce the use of emergency rooms.

You may think I "fly a bus" but I still struggle here on earth too. Maybe instead of always whining about the current law, how about putting forward some alternatives. In fact the claim by Boehner that Americans overwhelmingly want repeal of the bill are simply false. Only about 26-33% favor repeal. The rest favor either partial repeal, changes, expansion, or leave as is. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/07/gallup-poll-may-exaggerat_n_806...)

Healthier population? Yeah, those posters will help, but yearly physicals and checkups like colonoscopy's will certainly help, and they are part of having insurance.

Face it, is it really that "un-American," or "un-Christian" or simply so horrible to keep people from being un-insurable, or kicked off policies, or allowed to die because they can't afford insurance, or the insurance company decides it would rather pay the CEO $128 million than actually pay for treatment?

Compassionate Conservatism at it's best.

Cyclist
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bird,

There you go again - it's all about the insurance industry. You seem to be stuck in that record groove, so let's try a different tack.

Last year our nation spent $1 trillion more than it took in. We spent money to service the national debt, social security, medicare, defense, the Friendly Aviation Association and on and on. We also spent money on the following;

Upkeep for Unused Monkey House and Other Buildings -
(Department of Veterans Affairs) $175 Million

Sprucing Up Apartments Before They Are Torn Down - (Shreveport,
LA) $1.5 Million

Museum Where Neon Signs Go to Die… - (Las Vegas, NV) $1.8
Million

“Free” Grateful Dead Archive - (Santa Cruz, CA) $615,000

Agencies Pile Up Unnecessary Printing Costs - $930 Million

Poems in Zoos - (AR, IL, LA, WI, & FL) $997,766

Shooting Range Armed with Taxpayer Dollars - (Las Vegas, NV)
$15.68 Million

Studying World of Warcraft and Other Virtual Games - (Irvine,
CA) $2.9 Million

Fraudulent Medical Testing by Criminal Gangs - (U.S. Center for
Medicare and Medicaid Services) $35 Million

Bogus Tax Refunds for Prisoners - $112 million

Rebuilding Mosques - $6 million

Internet Dating Study - (Stanford, CA) $239,100

City Builds Streetcar System on Same Route as Subway System -
(Atlanta, GA) $47.6 Million

Studying Male Prostitutes in Vietnam - (San Juan, Puerto Rico)
$442,340

And finally,

Teaching South African Men How to Wash Their Genitalia -
(Los Angeles, CA) $823,200

As you look at these examples, ask yourself: at a time when we are borrowing over $44,000 for every person in the country, are these items a priority and are they a federal responsibility?

Honestly, I would rather have spent that money for health care. But noooo, our government doesn't even think about that. Now do they?

The concern is that we, the tax payer, will once again shoulder another load that will take another dollar of tax which is one less dollar that goes into buying things such as.....well such as buying tickets to fly someplace.

PTC Observer
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Cyclist - Couldn't

" And when they can no longer make a profit in this risk endeavor they will exit and then there's nothing to buffer that $10,000 out-patient procedure."

Couldn't turn out better for the state, they will step in and then we will have only one source for our healthcare, unless you are really, really rich. Then you can fly anywhere in the world on a "bus" to find it.

Only problem with this is that the state is broke.

PTC Observer
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Food for thought....bird

"Food for thought, this bill should lead to a healthier population".

It's a tax increase of major proportion, that's it. Oh and 15,000 or so tax collectors to enforce it.