Repealing DADT: Unintended results

Those who support repeal of DADT have no idea what the unintended consequences will be on the force.

Central to the issue is the fact that the overwhelming majority of our military come from conservative backgrounds where belief in Judeo/Christian values underpins our society and our way of life (including moral conduct codified in religious teachings).

Justification for repeal seems to be that the American public is more accepting of all varieties of gays now and accordingly, they will be readily accepted within the military.

Such a false assumption will be devastating. The military is no place for social engineering of this type.

Just because the American soldier says he or she holds no personal animosity against gays in general doesn’t mean they want gays serving openly in the military. The Commander in Chief and those who support repeal of the policy fail to understand what the impact will be on military ethos and the “warrior spirit” that is ingrained in our forces from day one.

The increased risk for HIV in blood supplies, promotion policies, reassignment regulations, restrictions on what our chaplains preach and counsel on the issue, gay partner benefits and even gay marriage will hit the services with the force of a daisy cutter bomb making a direct hit on the military establishment.

Housing our soldiers will present an even greater challenge to our commanders. Someone needs to stop and consider the consequences and the impact on morale and unit cohesion.

Training bases with open bays and gang latrines are still in use throughout the services. Is it right that heterosexual soldiers (male or female) should have to endure exposure to gay/lesbian members who may view themselves as the opposite sex of what they are biologically?

Does a commander house two gay/lesbian soldiers together in our new 2+2 person barracks? If he does, would a heterosexual male soldier be able to billet with a heterosexual female soldier? If not, why not?

Would the commander billet a gay and straight soldier together? Could the straight soldier object because of religious beliefs? If not, why not?

And how does the commander deal with those who are transgender and bisexual? These are but a few of the situations commanders and soldiers will have to confront if DADT is repealed.

I cannot begin the imagine what the ACLU and the courts will do to services and to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Do we really want our warfighters engaged in these distractions to the mission of defending our country and insuring our security interests throughout the world are protected?

Make no mistake about it, we are so fortunate to have the most dedicated, loyal and competent military in the world protecting us. Driving down this road to allow gays to serve openly will manifest itself in ways our civilian leadership has failed to analyze or even consider as they try to cram this policy down the throat of our military.

And finally, service in the military is not a right, it is a privilege earned by meeting qualifications and standards and agreeing to contractual requirements of service. I believe the Supreme Court acknowledged the uniqueness of the military and it’s right to restrict enlistments or commissioning when DADT was passed under the Clinton Administration

Roger Casale

Peachtree City, Ga.

Courthouserules
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Well, they are there now.......

......and have always been there!! There has been and is not now any way to keep them out--if we could then all those who don't want to go in emergencies would say they are gay or lesbian!

Was DADT the answer? How so? All those problems you mentioned with open rules have always occurred!

Just as some soldiers avoid people with caustic problems, they will also avoid gays and lesbians.

I remember a few 55 years ago in the military---one just avoided them if they chose.

You do know that probably 50-60% of gays and lesbians will NOT expose themselves even when they can! They don't now in civilian life!

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Simply put...

...the current policy works, albeit the removal of '3d Party Outing' would be fine, or a bit more fair, but we don't need the breadth of problems their 'open' service would bring (primarily driven by the homosexual lobby in this country). Allowing the 'acceptance' of deviant sexual behavior, in any venue, is not a positive step in any way, shape, or form (IMHO of course).

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KCC Andy & "Simply put"

I think many will disagree with your post--I know I do.

AtHomeGym
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KCC Andy & "Simply put"

I think many will agree with your post--I know I do.

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I know I don't

I didn't realize that only gays practice "deviant sexual behavior." Here all along I didn't have any idea that there was much two dudes can do that a man and woman cannot also do. I can see why it took the Supreme Court to overturn the stupid sodomy law in this state because there are plenty of people in GA with no clue about what exactly "sodomy" includes. They just know it must be WRONG because it's kind of a strange word and they were educated here and have no idea what it means or a way to find out.

This whole discussion revolves around the typical fundie interpretation that if God somehow created people with a desire to be with the same sex, that makes God in some way "imperfect" because obviously the only reason for opposite sex relationships is procreation, hence, all non-reproductive gays are defective people that couldn't have come from a supreme being.

It's nice to see the trends in society getting away from fundie-anything and a new-found sense of "live and let live" that almost seems at times to border on civil libertarianism and not superstitious nonsense.

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I have heard the new military

I have heard the new military motto will be: Frag A F_g!!

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You guys do realize

that gays have been serving in the military for, well since the military was formed. And yes, those of you who have served have probably shared a barracks and shower with at least one. And you do realize that the UCMJ is quite specific about fraternization in the military. It doesn't even distinguish between hetero or homo sex. It simply forbids it. That pretty much takes care of all the fears you hold. But if it doesn't, as Casale says, serving is not a right. If you don't like who you are serving alongside, then by all means resign and find other employment. If you are a true patriot, you serve ALL Americans with no qualifiers. Anything less and you need to get out and join the Tea Party.
As for some of Casale's stupider arguments, the military is constantly checked for HIV. You are just as at risk now as you will be if DADT is repealed. If a soldier is in a foxhole (that's fighting hole for Marines) and are being shot at do you really think he'll care about he sexual orientation of the guy next to him? He doesn't now. And he could already be gay. Besides a little decorative flair can always brighten that dingy old foxhole.
In the early 1970's a Silver Star winner for bravery in Vietnam, came out of the closet one year after being named the Top Enlisted man in the ENTIRE AIR FORCE. He was immediately deemed unfit to serve and discharged. Strange since he won a Silver Star and was named the Top Enlisted man.
Bottom line, DADT does nothing short of allowing a witch hunt to occur. If someone is accused of being gay, he can be discharged. Doesn't have to actually be gay, just needs the accusation to fly. And the only reason gay's are security risks are because they can be punished for being gay. This is leverage we give our enemies by law.
But of course you Christian, freedom loving, forward thinking, Constitutionalists already realize this.

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Birdman you have made some

Birdman you have made some incorrect assumptions. A lot were discharged for sexual assault or advances. They were lucky that all they got was discharged.

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Poll = More Rigged Propaganda
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Nice nutso stuff there, Roger

Ain't no telling what them there homo's be doin' next! They goin' to be spreading that homo stuff to all of us!

Typical fundie nonsense.

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Nutso indeed

Casale seems to hate homos almost as much as he hates Muslims (see his previous LTE).

Quite a lot of hate in that guy.

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Please President Truman

This is not the time to integrate the American military. Before you know it they will expect us to share the same quarters and eating facilities. This is just the beginning. Soon women will demand equal status to men. Please don't let this happen!

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DM & DADT

Seeing as you didn't serve and have no first hand knowledge, perhaps your husband could give you some advice (lots of time at SAC Bases, Yeah?). And precisely what we need on active duty is another homosexual activist like Private Bradley Manning, who is incarcerated and accused of disclosing thousands of our sensitive messages to the Wikileaks cyber-terrorist.

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Gym

As with the uptick in female soldiers during the seventies, there is likely a place for these folks. Currently women are restricted from certain specialties (i.e. infantry), and, hopefully, this will be the same for gays. I can only imagine how individual rifle companies, much less platoons/squads, would be affected.

I would imagine that most outside proponents of the ban believe a collegiate atmosphere to exist throughout the military, and in many cases it is. I would ask that they tour a training cycle down at Ft Benning before passing judgement because collegiate just ain't the right term. Further, no one is saying that gays are not already there, but for them to go public would be such a disruption, that their individual safety would be at risk.

Truman integrated the military during peacetime. Surely, we/this administration can do the same.

Thanks for earlier, as I look forward to the next time where we could get a few others to join us.

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Bit of a broad brush there, AHG

Not all homos are security risks, despite what Cal Thomas says.

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Bacon & Security Risks

Nope, didn't say that--just put forth a current example, with no inference to the current or future population. My background is not in the psycho-whatever field so I have no predictions about homos & security infidelity.

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AHG

LOOK -I was 'nice' to you when you made those incorrect statements about the Cuban crisis. You were in Germany at the time. Right? Others corrected you then - why don't you move on. The FBI did OK under Hoover - and you know there are many, many more. A person with criminal proclivities will act like a criminal regardless of his sexual orientation. Over 70% of active service men and women want it repealed. You and I are from another 'puritanical' era. Move on!!

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DM

Cuban crisis? You ought to change your board name to "Mother of Invention" because that's what you've done. Two words: show me! And let's see your proof of "Over 70% of active service men and women want it repealed." Show time!

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AHG

Are you denying that you were called out because you misrepresented what happened on SAC bases during the Cuban crisis while you were 'safe and secure' in Germany? Are you denying that other SAC wives contributed to the discussion - validating that what I shared was true?

Take a look at this - I'm showing you - younger people have a different opinion on this issue.

http://blog.hunch.com/?p=14704&SEMref=Google5&kw=gays%20in%20the%20milit...

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DM & Cuban Crisis

All I asked is for you to "show me"--should be in the archives. I don't think you can deliver. And you use "Hunch.com" as a source for forming your opinion? End of discussion.

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AHG

Are you and Georgia Patriot one in the same? I don't know too many people who use 'polls' to form their opinion. Do you? Why don't you go to the archives to prove that I'm wrong. End of discussion? Great! You stated that I 'lied' about the SAC base that I was on went to DEFCON 2 during the Cuban Missile crisis.

[edit] U.S. alert level raised
Adlai Stevenson shows aerial photos of Cuban missiles to the United Nations in November 1962.

he United States requested an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council on Thursday, October 25. In a loud, demanding tone, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Adlai Stevenson confronted Soviet Ambassador Valerian Zorin in an emergency meeting of the SC challenging him to admit the existence of the missiles. Ambassador Zorin refused to answer. The next day at 10:00 p.m. EST, the U.S. raised the readiness level of SAC forces to DEFCON 2. For the only confirmed time in U.S. history, the B-52 bombers were dispersed to various locations and made ready to take off, fully equipped, on 15 minutes notice.[36 wrote:

One-eighth of SAC's 1,436 bombers were on airborne alert, some 145 intercontinental ballistic missiles stood on ready alert, while Air Defense Command (ADC) redeployed 161 nuclear-armed interceptors to 16 dispersal fields within nine hours with one-third maintaining 15-minute alert status.[29]

The base was Larsen Air Force Base in Moses Lake, Washington. I don't intentionally lie - and I lived this experience sir.

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DM & DEFCON 2

Pls show me where I said you lied about DEFCON-2-Isn't that a simple enough request?

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TO REFRESH AHG'S MEMORY

FROM THE ARCHIVES:

Probably not.

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Whew!
Submitted by Davids mom on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:14pm.

We started counting. Sounded like B52's. If a certain number went 'up', it meant we were at war. Memories of the Cuban Crisis. (Air Force personnel - SAC)
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B52s
Submitted by AtHomeGym on Fri, 10/09/2009 - 4:43pm.

You won't hear them around here--and they're usually over 30,000 ft.
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Thanks AHG
Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 3:27pm.

You hear them when they take off and/or land - like at an air force base. I just said it reminded me of that sound. No plane is at 30,000 feet when it lands or takes off - right? Male testosterone-geeez.
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B52s & DM
Submitted by AtHomeGym on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 3:52pm.

The point was that there are none anywhere near here to be heard doing anything at ANY altitude. And there's nothing in the air show that is anywhere close to the decible level of a B52. Ah, I know--we aged folks have both hearing AND memory deficits! I think the nearest ones are at Barksdale AFB, LA. I have had the experience of observing B52 strikes (I was at 6,000 ft) and it's an awesome sight, watching the ground boil upward in one continuous long line. And trust me, testosterone's got nothing to do with it.
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Point well taken. My point
Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 4:54pm.

Point well taken. My point - the similarity in sound just made me REMEMBER counting the number of planes taking off - nothing else. I'm just thankful that I'm still here and have the ability to remember. We have friends who aren't here anymore - and the memory is bittersweet. Sorry about the testosterone quip.
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Counting B52 Takeoffs
Submitted by AtHomeGym on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 5:49pm.

Sorry, but I think someone was feeding you bad info---number of takeoffs have little to do with Defense Condition (DEFCON) status--there is just no direct correlation.
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1962-B52's
Submitted by Davids mom on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 6:12pm.

Where were you? As a wife on a SAC base, we knew when our husbands would be in 'danger'. . . and we counted those 'take-offs'! Especially if the base was on alert. There was always one B52 'up' - but when they ALL left, we knew this was more than an alert. They all left in 1962. No one 'fed' me anything. That was my life! If for security reasons, that was 'unfounded' information - so be it. It was what we believed. . and held our breath each time the take-offs happened in '62. SAC stands for Strategic Air Command. All B52's left our base - and we were in the midst of the Cuban Crisis. We were most grateful when they all returned. That was not always the case - as we lost a crew on a 'test' flight. There is a special place in my heart for the young families today who are experiencing the combination of pride and fear as their loved ones serve our country in the military.
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DM--Several things
Submitted by AtHomeGym on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 7:52pm.

First, in 2962.I was stationed at an isolated detachment in Germany, in charge of 15 soldiers working a 24x7 mission with 2 German civilian employees and about $5000,00 worth of equipment I was responsible for. Next, no matter how many B52s took off from wherever you were, the record shows that none ever dropped any ordnance on Cuba. And I don't know how you can accurately say "they all left in 1962" and even if they did, you have no way of knowing why they did.
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AHG
Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 10/11/2009 - 8:44pm.

Congratulations on your assignment in 1962. We were in the states. I did not intend to imply that we (our B52's) were sent to Cuba - but base personnel was notified - and it was published in the papers that we were one of the 7 targets in the US that Russia 'may' aim for. If you had been in the states at that time, you would have been aware of the fear and anxiety of the time. Civilians emptied the stores of food and supplies. I'm sure that when you left the service, you had even more under your command. . .it sounds like you were a SGT. at the time. I can accurately say 'they' all left - not one plane was on our base for days. There was also an extensive underground area where 'security personnel' stayed. This was before 'cell' phones - and when personnel went on alert - we didn't know where they were. You would be amazed at what the 'base wives' knew. During that time, all major personnel were advised to get their personal business in order. It was harrowing for a young bride. I think that the personnel that I knew had a little more information than an NCO in
Germany. By coincidence, my relative was base commander. (The relative was not my husband) Do some research on the job description and duty of the B52's in SAC. (Strategic Air Command) It may give you a better understanding of the what and why of 1962 military actions.
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DM & SAC
Submitted by AtHomeGym on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 3:39pm.

How about we just agree to be happy about the outcome of that crisis and leave it at that---at least until someone else hears strange local sounds and I make some attempt to help them understand. Also, don't mistake my comments: I have always had the utmost respect for SAC crews--I can't imagine what it must feel like to take off and have neither any guarantee that you'll ever reach your tgt nor any guarantee that you'll return home safely. And what I knew as a 3-yr active duty soldier in 1962 isn't the issue--it's what I learned in the next 18 yrs of active duty. BTW, I am very familiar with the NSA and when I was working had to visit there monthly or often more than that to conduct official business. Selah.
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21 Years of Service - AHG
Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:14pm.

Thanks so much! There are too many 'civilians' who don't realize the sacrifice that our military makes in order for us to have our freedom.
Peace!
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DEFCON
Submitted by Davids mom on Sun, 10/11/2009 - 9:13pm.

CHECK HERE FOR VALIDATION OF SAC ACTIVITIES IN 1962

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the US Strategic Air Command was placed on DEFCON 2 for the first time in history, while the rest of US military commands (with the exception of the US Air Forces in Europe) went on DEFCON 3. On 22 October 1962 SAC responded by establishing Defense Condition Three (DEFCON III), and ordered B-52s on airborne alert. Tension grew and the next day SAC declared DEFCON II, a heightened state of alert, ready to strike targets within the Soviet Union.

I may be old - but I'm not senile. The memory is still pretty accurate.
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Fail-Safe
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Submitted by Cyclist on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 7:21pm.

"... the matador, the matador, the matador..."
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DEFCON II
Submitted by PTCGOIL on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 5:18pm.

I'm not quite that old, but in '62 we lived on an air base in Spain. My father was a pilot with SAC. I remember my father on high alert for a long period of time. I remember the air raid drills in school and being told we could be bussed out of school to parts unknown without our father. He was gone alot. My mother was under so much stress with 4 kids and not knowing what was going to break loose or where we would end up.
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PTCGOIL
Submitted by Davids mom on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:18pm.

I never thought about what children of pilots must have gone through - especially if they were with their father. We came real close that time to a horrible war. Thank heavens 'it didn't break loose'.
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B-52
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Submitted by Cyclist on Sat, 10/10/2009 - 5:15pm.

About 3 years ago a B-52H made a couple of low passes over the Atlanta Motor Speedway prior to the start of the race. With eight turning and burning, a "BUFF" has an unique sound.
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BUFF's, great memories...
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Submitted by Fyt35 on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 2:18pm.

…of the four years I was an electrical systems technician (spark chaser) on B-52 d, G and H models, along with KC-135's. What a phenomenal bomber it is, we had one ferried from Warner Robins to the depot in OKC with and 18ft crack, like nothing!

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Buff Memories
Submitted by AtHomeGym on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 4:16pm.

I know those had to be some times you'll never forget. And what's so remarkable is that they're still serving! Just as a matter of interest, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the owner of "It's A Grind" across the street from the hospital, was a BUF driver--you might like to have a chat with him if you happen to stop by.
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Cy--My personal experience with a B-52
Submitted by AtHomeGym on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 2:03pm.

In either 1979 or 1980, I had reason to visit theTonopah Electronic Warfare Range

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AHG

You look it up - or inform me how to get to the archives. Thanks

FOR SOME REASON THIS WAS NOT SHOWN IN ITS ENTIRETY:

Are you and Georgia Patriot one in the same? I don't know too many people who use 'polls' to form their opinion. Do you? Why don't you go to the archives to prove that I'm wrong. End of discussion? Great! You stated that I 'lied' about the SAC base that I was on went to DEFCON 2 during the Cuban Missile crisis.

[edit] U.S. alert level raised
Adlai Stevenson shows aerial photos of Cuban missiles to the United Nations in November 1962.

Quote:

The United States requested an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council on Thursday, October 25. In a loud, demanding tone, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Adlai Stevenson confronted Soviet Ambassador Valerian Zorin in an emergency meeting of the SC challenging him to admit the existence of the missiles. Ambassador Zorin refused to answer. The next day at 10:00 p.m. EST, the U.S. raised the readiness level of SAC forces to DEFCON 2. For the only confirmed time in U.S. history, the B-52 bombers were dispersed to various locations and made ready to take off, fully equipped, on 15 minutes notice.[36] One-eighth of SAC's 1,436 bombers were on airborne alert, some 145 intercontinental ballistic missiles stood on ready alert, while Air Defense Command (ADC) redeployed 161 nuclear-armed interceptors to 16 dispersal fields within nine hours with one-third maintaining 15-minute alert status.[29]

The base was Larson Air Force Base in Moses Lake, Washington. I don't intentionally lie - and I lived this experience sir.. .as did many other military wives at the time. Were you married when you were in the military? The families experience much of the fear and trepidation of war - just not the actual danger as those who are actively fighting for our country. As I told you at that time, a relative was base commander - and we were all prepared for the worst. Larson was one of Russia's 7 targets in the US. Although we had 'safe' shelter' - we were told if we get a direct hit - kiss your a-- GOOD BYE! Now I'm sure you can find this discussion in the archives.

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Dm

The archive button is right beside the logout/login button. Top left of any page.

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hutch

Thanks.

hutch866
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Dm

Are these 72% of hunch users in the military right now? I'm not familiar with this site?

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HUTCH

As you can see, this poll is mainly taken from young persons in today's military, liberals, techy's, etc. We're not familiar with this and many other sites - because we're not 'young'. As with the fears regarding integration of blacks and whites in the military - the younger generation after WWII seemed to do OK with that revolutionary idea. Why I remember when 'women' weren’t accepted in the military - for active duty. Now they're coming home with the same horrible wounds as men, if they return. Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable no matter what your sexual orientation. Unacceptable behavior will be dealt with in the military.

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Dm

So this is where you get your 70% figure from?

hutch866
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AHG

She likes the 70% figure, once she told me that 70% of white people voted for Obama.

Davids mom
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HUTCH

. . .AND WHAT A MISTAKE THAT WAS!!

Whites

Quote:

55% of white votes went to McCain including the notoriously hard-to-win white working class vote, but Obama stunned many by taking an impressive 43% of total white votes, cutting the Republican lead compared with 2004

Even with 95+% of the black vote going to Obama - it still counted for only 13% of the total vote.

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The larger issue...

...is more about the homosexual lobby pressing their minority viewpoints on America in an attempt to legitimize their lifestyle. Homosexuals exist in our military and for the last several years the system has worked, to a degree. As far as so many valuable personnel being discharged for homosexual acts, from the reports I have read less than 1% of all DoD discharges (from 2005-2008, anyway - the report periods I found) were for homosexual acts. As alluded to above, allowing 'open' service is merely the tip of the iceberg; more and more demands will follow, as will more EO and sexual harassment issues. This is NOT the time for the US military to tackle this issue; politicians have a little more time on their hands than we do.

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