Gas golf cart ban a lock?

PTC postpones ban on gas carts in 2020, but three votes appear likely in favor

A complete ban on gas golf carts on Peachtree City’s paths in 10 years was temporarily postponed tonight.

But the ban is supported by three city council members, enough to insure its approval assuming no one changes their mind in coming weeks as the ordinance is tweaked and reintroduced.

Citizens criticized the initiative, with several citing the longer range gas golf carts provide compared to electric carts. And a local businessman told council that eliminating gas carts would “kill” his cart rental business because out of town visitors would be extremely limited in their range compared to gas golf carts.

It was also suggested by several residents that gas golf carts are widely used by senior citizens for their ease of use since they don’t have to be recharged. And some families who use a golf cart as a main form of transportation like the gas carts particularly for the extended range compared to electric carts.

Councilman Eric Imker, who supports the ban along with Councilman Doug Sturbaum and Mayor Don Haddix, said he feels technology will be dramatically improved in 10 years in terms of having better batteries for example that would provide a longer range.

Councilwoman Kim Learnard challenged that contention, saying if such technology was under development for golf carts, she wanted to hear about it before the ordinance would be adopted.

Learnard said she was extremely concerned the city would be passing legislation that would have such a negative impact on the city’s tourism and local businesses.

Councilwoman Vanessa Fleisch, who also opposed the gas golf cart ban, said the ban would devalue gas golf carts currently owned by residents.

Imker suggested the matter be tabled so the issue with gas cart rentals could be explored further.

Learnard said the city should also consider allowing gas cart exemptions for residents who depend on a cart as their main means of transportation and also for senior citizens.

After listing further potential exemptions, Learnard clarified she was being sarcastic, as she clearly opposed the ban on gas golf carts.

alanf33
alanf33's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/31/2006
thanks, one day maybe i'll be as edumacated as you!

I'll not defend that I understand the difference between a representative republic and a 'pure democracy'. I also know the difference between educastion and common sense. You obviously have one at the expense of the latter.

This same 'inteligesia' ensured the election of a government closer to socialist than any seen in the short history of this country. To leap from a town people's voice on the acceptance of a certain type of golf cart to Nazi Germany is .....wait for it ....retarted. Oops, sorry, mentally challenged.

jmatute
jmatute's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/23/2005
Mayor Haddix Needs Consistency

On one hand, Don, you favor banning golf carts because they are noisy and stinky. On the other hand, you will not back any effort to ban the unnecessary multiple trash haulers up and down our neighborhoods and streets because you don't want government to be intrusive into peoples' lives....even though the trucks and noisy and stinky, and also cause road surface wear and tear and pot holes, and added expense to taxpayers to maintain the streets of this city. You cannot have it both ways. If I have to give up my golf cart, I would gladly do so, if it would include the trash trucks. If my cart is banned, and the trucks still stay, I would have to conclude that you have no more political back bone than the last mayor we had.

Spyglass
Spyglass's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/28/2008
I am not in favor of the carts being obsolete in 10 years..

No way I would be in favor of that. IF you have a gas cart, and they pass this ban, I think you should be able to keep your gas cart until the wheels fall off.

inkslinger
inkslinger's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/20/2007
So, With that,

how many new gas carts are you willing to accept from Tyrone and Senoia and Redwine Rd. over the next 10 years? Any idea how many gas carts are housed just outside our current path system that would have to be included in this grandfathering if/when these paths are extended outside our city borders? How many gas carts are we permitting in from Redwine Rd. areas now that are gas, compared to the electric powered permitted ones from Redwine Rd.? How many gas carts are we permitting from Maple Shade and north onto the Crestwood Rd. subdivision?

Remove those permitted gas carts that are housed outside the city limit, how many actual PTC residents are you affecting by banning gas carts? Are we denying them access to our paths if we ban them? No, we will continue welcome them to walk, ride bikes, run and operate any electric cart they have, just like the residents who live within the city limits.

Anyone know the true answer to the ratio of gas/electric carts that we permit here from households outside our city limits? I bet it's a heck of a lot higher than from within the city. So, who are we really affecting here with this change? The residents of PTC, who have sole authority over what goes on within our borders, or users of our path system that come from outside the city limits?

Anyone know the answer here?

inkslinger
inkslinger's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/20/2007
Gas Carts

Facts
Gas carts smell, have exhaust
Electric carts do not smell, have no exhaust

Gas carts make noise
Electric carts do not make noise

Electric carts WILL get you to every subdivision, shopping center, nook and cranny in this city on one charge. And home again. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure your cart is properly maintained to accomplish this.

Not the city.

Not your teens or kids.

Not the dealers.

If you fail to do that, tough luck for you. Ring someone's doorbell for a charge. There are only about 16,000 homes here you can rely on for help. Or use your cell phone for help.

The paths are defined as recreation paths. Look it up in the ordinances.

They were never designed as a primary means of travel through Peachtree City.

They were never designed as a sole means of travel through Peachtree City.

If an electric cart is not convenient for you, use your auto, truck or SUV, or motorcycle. That's why we have roads, city streets, traffic lights, parking lots.

The city staff won't mind, the mayor and council won't mind and you won't hurt anyone's feelings or break any law doing so.

GT
GT's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/10/2010
This says it all....

PTCGOIL cleared it up for all of us. It's not about noise pollution or air pollution, the viable arguements, it's simply about "comfort". The fact that PTCGOIL could care less about what supplants the cart fro transport proves that point. Only one problem, using that standard....DOGS have issues on the paths since they make noise and produce things that smell. Of course, backyard cookouts would also be taboo because they also smell and are associated with noise. I'm just curious if anyone could hear a cart over a cookout or dog barking?? (I'm a dog lover so relax, it's for the point!). If we open it up on PTCGOIL's level, where exactly do we draw the line and who gets to draw it?

Like I said earlier, people should look at facts. For the record, the paths are called "multi-use" paths, NOT recreation paths. Take at look at the PTC government website TODAY. You'll find a lot of info in the electronic archives dating all the way back to 1959 and there is a complete 269 page history on the golf cart story. Nuff said. I'm on the way over to a stranger's house to plug in my cord for the next 8 hours so I'll be busy.....

inkslinger
inkslinger's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/20/2007
No, Can't Clear

up fact for some who have been inhaling fumes of all types for most of their lives.

Hey, GT, try this on. Sec. 78-91...78-94...78-95...70-40 of the city ordinances. See, some of actually refer to what the laws and ordinances read, not the fluff p.r. pieces that every city puts out on the casual reading pages. See any facts there, bucky?

The rest of your post is so moronic, I'll let you be the one to bask in wittiness.

There is nothing more obtrusive on the serenity of our paths than the odor of gas fumes and the noise. Another fact, bucky.

GT
GT's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/10/2010
Just the FACTS please......

I am a gas cart owner. I have it for one simple reason, the range issue. PTC is growing in several directions and living on the edge means a gamble to make it to certain parts. I HAVE walked home from a dead electric cart, so I know it happens. It amazes me that some folks have the info on the gas carts completely WRONG.

IF you did your homework, you’d see that carts put out less emissions that the best ULEV (ultra low emission vehicle) made today. Just stop into an emissions station and check it out. I wonder why, IF sound is an issue, no one has even mentioned a simple requirement to use an additional “muffler” on the cart AND no one has mentioned regulation of cart borne stereos??? There has to be another agenda at work here. Smell? Carbon monoxide is ODORLESS (which is why people get gassed in their garage without knowing it). Perhaps it could be the additives, so I‘d encourage the council to limit exactly which stations should supply fuel in PTC (arr arr). Racing?? Anyone that knows anything about carts knows electric carts are faster than gas; you can adjust up the governor on an electric cart to well above legal limits, BUT gas cart speed is determined in the rear gear, NOT by the carb. It takes real effort and expense to speed up a gas cart. Fact is EITHER can be spiced up by an aspiring teenager with some tech school know-how AND the electric carts are actually cheaper to make a hot rod. They must not really be interested in that because a simple ordinance that carts be in “factory” condition would go virtually un-noticed. There has to be another agenda at work here….

I’d encourage everyone on both sides to do their homework vice spouting off facts they haven’t mastered.
At the end of the day, I’ll follow whatever the rule of the day is. If the council wants me to use my V-8 Dodge Ram to get from point A-B in lieu of a gas cart, that’s fine and that’s what I’ll do. I read a “survey” that said it’s quieter than a gas cart and puts out less fumes that don’t float across a paths! For that matter, why don’t they do a survey to legalize drinking on the cart paths? I’m sure that would be acceptable to almost everyone that replied to the internet survey as well!! OR…..you can look at this with open eyes and realize a “survey” is not why you need, it’s a REFERENDUM where ALL of the people get a say and ALL of the people get to decide. This is not like regulating where your dog can poop, the council is considering how to alter the very thing that brought some people here, your way of life.

PS: This whole exchange does make me wonder how many E-85 and hybrid vehicles PTC currently maintains in it’s fleet. After all, if fumes and noise are the problem, shouldn’t they lead by example?

scribbler
scribbler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/01/2007
GT: Well said...

Thanks for an excellent post.

And also to SPQR and MajorMike...

I think you have nailed it -- the "A" word.... A-G-E-N-D-A...

Thanks again for speaking out!

SPQR
SPQR's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2007
GT

At the last council meeting many of the issues you mention and more were brought up from the floor. Many of the arguments against a ban were very well thought out and presented. From an impartial perspective it was clear the ban would do much more harm than good. Clearly, as you mention there is an agenda that is not interested in common sense and even goes so far as to cause harm to existing gas cart owners by devaluing their property. This whole episode makes the council look vindictive and foolish. Where is it being driven from?

MajorMike
MajorMike's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/20/2005
GT

Excellent post GT. Although I fear that the Mayor and Councilman Imker have, by all reports, got their minds made up, I would still urge you to email a copy of your "Just the facts" post to each and every member of the of the city council. One can only hope that reason will prevail.

Patryk M
Patryk M's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/10/2010
Gas cart ban

The city wants to ban part of what put the city on the map? What's next? Banning the use of wedges on all golf courses? Sure, battery technology will be better in 10 years but I imagine gasoline engines will also be better. Just put a gas tax on it and move on. Sheesh!

TinCan
TinCan's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/29/2005
Patryk

If there are gas emissions on your back swing...ban 'em. However, drivers may be more likely to be the cause.

alanf33
alanf33's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/31/2006
Please stop the whining...

or is that wheezing?

Play with numbers all you like, 8 of 10 people in the city have stated that they are opposed to gas carts.

In most democracies, that would be it, but in our upside down country, when 80% say no, Democrats you 'oh yes we can!'. No surprise that Ms. L and Ms. F are opposed to banning on the grounds that we are imposing on the rights of a few while they support a healthcare edict imposed on ALL, regardless of the wishes of the majority.

As for the local business owner complaining that business will be lost if visitors can't tool all over town, spewing noxious fumes and cracking the quiet of the woods, I say get over it. In ten years any units you own will be fully depreciated. Even now, with a well maintained cart and a good set of batteries, you can cruise for at least 20 miles. Not to mention that there are charging locations in town. In ten years, likely that range will double.

We use the carts to get away from the roads. Only a few trails are near busy streets. Many miles are in the woods and away from the stench and noise of 54. This is about quality of life. Its bad enough that we have hoards (yes I said it) of teenagers cruising around on electric carts, the last thing we need is a growing population of youngsters racing around on gas powered carts.

While we're at it, how about a limitation on the radio volume on the paths. I really don't want to hear a Mexican folk song, irreverent rapping, or screaming rock (or for that matter even easy listening) when I am out with my kids getting some air and heading to a fishing hole.

If you want to live in a more 'accepting' community, I suggest you move. I suspect you knew where you were moving when you came here (unless of course you only came here for an investment or to make yourself feel important with a zip code)!

scribbler
scribbler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/01/2007
Who is "whining" here??

I am always fascinated to discover that well-presented, well-documented, well-thought-out, equally valuable, and substantial contrary opinions are labeled as "whining" when the proponents of intrusive government regulation run out of facts and common-sense.

We do not live in the form of democracy where we forge law by "8 of 10" results in unofficial opinion polls. Raw poll-driven "democracy" remains merely a sophisticated form of mob rule.

If you want to live in such an opinion-fueled, emotionally-driven and politically-correct "RIGHT-SIDE-UP democracy", where the rights of the minority opinion holders are easily trampled by the whims of the majority opinion -- I suggest you move. There are a lot of tinhorn third-world dictators who would be happy to tax your family as it suits them -- and tell you how to live according the "majority opinion... will of the people"...... ad nauseam.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/30/2005
scribbler

There are a lot of tinhorn third-world dictators who would be happy to tax your family as it suits them -- and tell you how to live according the "majority opinion... will of the people"...... ad nauseam.

Someone paid attention in civics class and understands The Constitution - and the meaning of 'democracy'. Rule of law - as it applies to all citizens. . that's how it should work. The 'will of the people' has caused this country embarrassment when it conflicted with The Constitution.

scribbler
scribbler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/01/2007
Thanks mom!

:^)

Enjoy your day!

alanf33
alanf33's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/31/2006
HA you make me laugh Comrade!

No we presently live in a democracy where the voice of the majority on any issue is ignored unless it capitulates to every minority viewpoint and desire. Tinhorn dictator who will tax at will? What do you think you have here and now? When the individual rights of every individual outweighs the will of the majority, you do not have government...they call that anarchy. It sounds like in your 'democracy' if one chose to shove another's obnoxoius gas machine into the lake, that person would have to be protected because his rights were infringed upon by the noise and fumes. Where does it end....let me guess, when you get whatever your heart desires and your neighbors can eat you smoke! Move out to the country and drive around naked on a three-wheeler fueled with chicken blood. Nobody will know and nobody will care. Live in a town, accept the will of the majority...do you get it now?

NUK_1
NUK_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/17/2007
alanf33: Education is a good thing

Your comments really make me stop and think if maybe term limits are necessary because the American voting public is so hopelessly ignorant and also so STUPID that nothing will ever change for the better otherwise. You need a very basic lesson in Civics 101 and to learn the difference between what a "republic" is and what a "pure democracy" is.

The "will of the majority and accept it?" Can we bring back Heil Hitler too?
We'd all be living in caves right now if our ancestors hadn't decided that the "will of the majority" sometimes is pathetically wrong. You ever hear of the concept of "tyranny of the majority?" I didn't think so.....that's a little too much of advanced thinking for some.

Spyglass
Spyglass's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/28/2008
Now this thread is WAY off track..

comments like yours are laughable.

scribbler
scribbler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/01/2007
EXCELLENT RANT! -- WELL DONE!

"Live in a town, accept the will of the majority...do you get it now?"
AGAIN... MERELY MOB RULE...

TRY THIS--
Live in a town-- nominate and elect local representation and city officials to write and enforce the local ordnances, and administer the business affairs-- under the charter and within the limitations granted from the state.

Take a civics course -- do some background reading...

... In order to understand our fundamental and INALIENABLE rights...
(also legislative workings.... and judicial protections -- including civil recourse) provided for in the Constitutution of the United States of America..

THEN....
Your rants will make more sense!

Hang in there.

snitz
snitz's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/07/2010
Gas Golf Cart Ban Hysteria

For the council to even entertain banning gas golf carts indicates how misguided their priorities are. Shouldn’t the market, i.e. consumer, decide if gas golf carts (GGC) should be eliminated? The notion that the council somehow knows better than the public about what is in our best interests smacks of what is wrong with not only local government, but also federal government. The argument of the excessive noise and pollution used to eliminate GGCs should be dismissed out-of-hand. The decibel level is very well within tolerable limits and can hardly be heard from a house or from 20 feet. If noise is an issue, then motorcycles should be considered banned before GGCs. Eliminating pollution for the sake of pollution is preposterous and expensive. The global warming myth has been debunked and at best is questionable. Why not list our top 10 polluters by volume and start eliminating things such as classic cars, cows, motorcycles, etc.

For the council to even consider this as worthwhile is at best grandstanding and shows how politicians can be naive and caught up in emotion. I, for one, vote for the person who promises me the least. Why? Because everything a politician promises, costs me money. Nothing is for free. While I do not care for GGCs, it should be the consumer’s choice, not mine to choose. Eliminating competition naturally begets higher prices. Why is big brother choosing the winners in the market? I do not want government dictating my choices for GCCs, health care, or food, but that is exactly what is happening.

normal
normal's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/11/2009
Come on snitz

They are noisy, they stink, they pollute the air, It is that simple

scribbler
scribbler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/01/2007
Let's BAN them....

bulldozers... bobcats... asphalt pavers... steam rollers.... diesel locomotives... pile-drivers... 18-wheelers... sanitation trucks... emergency power generators...

they are noisy...
they stink...
they pollute the air...

It's that simple!

************
BUT WAIT... WAIT...

To some people...
And sometimes for many people...

This equipment is useful, productive, and often serves special purposes providing measurable quality-of-life improvements!

Think it through-- it helps a lot!

Spyglass
Spyglass's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/28/2008
Those things you mention are banned

from the cart paths.

SPQR
SPQR's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2007
mayor

with all due respect gas golf carts do not have two stroke engines

Don Haddix
Don Haddix's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/17/2007
Haddix: SPQR

The EPD employee didn't limit it to 2 stroke engines. She include the range of engines of that type.

The Feds want to eliminate 2 stroke by 2012. Our conversation was about the next ten years.

If you research further you find on the total target list includes small 4 stroke engines as well.

Hope that makes it clearer as to what she said.

scribbler
scribbler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/01/2007
Ummm.... "EPD" Input?.. AND MORE

Let's note that name-dropping the EPD is a little disengenuous.

The "unexpected input from a citizen who works for..."
....is simply one more opinion, albeit educated, tossed into the mix.

This article and thread does not tell us how said "citizen" is already disposed towards this particular vehicle-use issue. Guessing how they are leaning should be easy -- but just "might" lead to the wrong conclusion.

Perhaps such an offering of educated opinion should --at best -- lead to PTC requesting and funding a REAL STUDY -- that produces REAL DATA here on our REAL PATH SYSTEM -- before you take this furball of emotions, political correctness, and the occasional educated guess -- and MAKE IT INTO REAL LAW that affects our lives and lifestyle.

There are much bigger fish to fry for PTC Council.

And I am not yet convinced the Mayor and Council really have the authority to make such a "popular" (emotionally-driven) ordnance really stick. Yes, we know they THINK that they can do this without any repercussions (save the next ballot-count!).

We also know from observation and experience that all politicians, most office-holders and local legislative bodies like to think they can do whatever they please (and they usually vote accordingly); Until they are eventually challenged (at great and unnecessary expense), with the facts, existing law, and pre-existing legal precedent.

Mr. Mayor, You were not elected to preside over the incessant meddling with our rights, our lifestyle and private property. You need to figure this out quickly. I hope you will choose to preside over getting this famously over-active local government out of our face, out of our pocket, and out of our PRIVATE garage.

I certainly hope that 80% of the INFORMAL AND UNSCIENTIFIC local input and emotion-driven political correctness never decides that red trucks or white cars are just to-o-o-o-o much of an eyesore in PTC, and should certainly be outlawed from operating on the city streets.

HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENTS: (1) Think this ALL THE WAY through, including the inevitable unintended consequences of your new little law. (2) The Constitutional (US & GA), statutory and case law regarding the defensibility of such an ordnance, if challenged in a court of law.

Have a nice day!

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
MajorMike

After reading this response you are right. It just amazes me that some are grasping for any reason to validate their point.

The EPD representative is saying the Federal Government is going to create new standards ten years beyond 2012. Well since these standards are embedded within the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) I would say that the EPD representative has remarkable clairvoyance to know how a future Congress would vote. That person needs to go to Las Vegas.

Does this EPD representative live in the city?

MajorMike
MajorMike's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/20/2005
PTC gas cart association

The following is a copy of an email that I sent stating my position. Should this ill considered ordinance pass I would be interested in forming a PTC gas cart association to address the issue. Comments?

Dear Mayor Haddix and Council,

Regarding the Golf Cart Ordinance - If the majority of Peachtree City residents want to ban gas golf carts from this point forward ... fine, great idea, I agree with you.

15 year grandfather clause - I don't think so. Anything short of outright grandfathering diminishes the value of my property without compensation and is not without legal consequences. Will I personally bring legal action? Probably not within the next twenty four months but after that - who knows? Others have stated that they would bring legal action immediately. Remember that PTC once had an ordinance that you could not park on the street. Some disgruntled neighbors had a man with five cars (four could fit in his driveway) cited and PTC quickly lost the ordinance in court.

I have lived in PTC near Oak Grove Elementary for twenty five years now and have owned a Yahama gas golf cart for 17 of those years. It is quiet and well maintained. In that entire time I have encountered only two other gas carts on the paths.

The protestations and arguments of the electric cart crowd just don't add up. Smelly? - no, remember that most cart paths are immediately adjacent to roads so what are they smelling? Environmentally damaging? - no more so (if as much) than electric. Have you ever watched the Discovery program about the uninhabitable areas where lead mining occurred?

Bottom line – Finite grandfathering is not morally or legally feasible unless the city is willing to compensate and perhaps not even then. If the city attorney is telling you otherwise, ask for your money back.

Please don’t bow to the mega-whiners.

Warm Regards,

Spyglass
Spyglass's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/28/2008
Major Mike..re your gas cart..

I'm sure it is in VERY good shape. A few that I've seen are. Many are not. You can sit by my pool and tell if the cart on the path is gas or electric before they get near my house. My pool is a good 25 yards from the cart path, and is also buffered by a 6 foot high privacy fence.

All that said, I am not in favor of making your gas cart obsolete. I think you should be able to keep it until the wheels fall off. I think the grandfathering should be forever, for the carts presently registered in PTC. I also think the dealers in the area should be able to sell the gas carts they have in stock. This would seem to be the best solution overall. I know it won't please everyone, not much ever does that.

Don Haddix
Don Haddix's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/17/2007
Haddix: MajorMike

We did discuss the point but as well had some unexpected input from an citizen who works for the EPD (Environment Protection Division).

A gas cart has a motor similar to a gas powered lawn mower, leaf blower, etc. They are among the most polluting gas motors in existence. The Feds are already looking to eliminate these motors from the environment and are already forcing changes.

Basically she said in ten years these type motors are going to be gone, one way or another.

There is also the development now of alternative power sources, far better batteries, etc.

So the reality of gas and electric golf carts is not static. The old carts are not comparing to the new either in cost or range. That will continue to change.

I do not have a perfect answer to these issues. But I do know there are people out there with electric not having the problems other claim. I also know there are people having problems with gas others claim they do not have.

We are up to over 1,800 responses on carts, which is more than we got on the Budget in the spring. As of last night 79% said ban them because they intruded upon the quality of life and enjoyment of the paths by others, meaning they smell.

Really kind of reminds me of when the banning of smoking in public buildings was debated. I am sure you remember that one.

As I said I don't have a perfect answer. But I do know that a cart is a vehicle by law and driving a vehicle is a privilege, not a legal right.

Council has worked with the State to expand our abilities to allow more usage because citizens wanted it. Now, in this case, they want something gone from the paths.

matt.barnes
matt.barnes's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/07/2009
Waste of Time

"Basically she said in ten years these type motors are going to be gone, one way or another" if these motors aren't going to exist in ten years anyway, then why bother taking the time to create an ordinance. As it is less than 5% of the golf carts in this town are gas. Over the next ten years manufacturers are going to stop producing them and the current carts are going to stop working. Bottom line, the number of existing gas golf carts is very low and it is going to get lower with or without a ban. So why bother? This is a gross waste of time and city resources.

Courthouserules
Courthouserules's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/02/2010
Barnes

You of all people, a politician, ought to know the answer to why an ordinance that is useless!

They did something asked for! Gets some people's vote!

Sheer ignorance.

SPQR
SPQR's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2007
Mayor

With all due respect again. driving is a right regulated by the government to insure public safety. Government is not supposed to be in the business of dispensing privilege. Where do think we are? 16th century France.

MajorMike
MajorMike's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/20/2005
SPQR

Thanks SPQR but I was quoting Mayor Haddix's reply and addressing it; "a cart is a vehicle by law and driving a vehicle is a privilege, not a legal right." The argument was just not relevant to the issue.

Parle vou France'?

SPQR
SPQR's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2007
Major Mike

Je suis desolee

Je ne parle pas francais

More than one french teacher will attest to that!

When someone comes out with "driving is a privilege not a right" I cringe at the thought of government dispensing privilege.

MajorMike
MajorMike's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/20/2005
Don Haddix

How is it we get unsolicited opinions from the EPA. Ronald Reagan once said that the scariest words on earth are "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you".

Said unexpected input needs to drop back and research before putting her foot in it. "A gas cart has a motor similar to a gas powered lawn mower, leaf blower, etc". Sorry, but just not true. The engine she is referring to is a gas/oil mixture engine and yes, in smaller engines is relatively polluting. My golf cart, which is not even a newer model, has both an oil injection system and an exhaust recirculation system. Did you ever wonder why you had to add oil (usually at oil change) to most gasoline powered vehicles? Could it be that they burn some oil? She is also waaaay off base about them being gone in ten years. Even so, is the EPA going to ban existing ones? Nope, they're grandfathered! So much for free advice. Development of new power sources? Just how long has THAT been on the horizon?

The real issue here is NOT banning gas golf carts. If you reread my letter you will see that I am in favor of that. The issue is grandfathering. I have a 1985 Ford Ranger (71K actual miles). This year I don't even have to get the State emissions inspection. Is the State of Georgia going to not issue me a tag renewal? Don't think so, it's grandfathered.

Over 1800 responses and 21% don't have a problem with gas carts despite the fact that only 5% of the carts are gas. We can take statistics and surveys anywhere you want to go. A college professor of mine once said; "anything can be proved, or disproved, using statistics".

Smoking in public buildings? Not relevant! Public buildings are enclosed spaces and people still smoke in public. It could be called grandfathering.

"a cart is a vehicle by law and driving a vehicle is a privilege, not a legal right." Selective law or code enforcement is also not a legal right and also has no bearing on this subject.

Dear Mr. Mayor, I like you and I respect the job you are doing but....... it seems like you may have made up your mind on this issue even though most of your arguments here simply don't hold water. Again, the issue is grandfathering!! One of the cornerstones of our legal system is that the majority (79%) can not ride roughshod over the minority. BAN THE NEW CARTS - fine! But don't try to cost me money because of the majority's wish list.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Mike

The Mayor is likely on one of his rolls and will not listen to reason. Your points are valid to each of his attempts to obfuscate the issue.

What needs to be pointed out is that none of his surveys show a true representation of the mindset of those here in Peachtree City, but to him getting 1800 (out of 34,000) is such an improvement that it simply has to be fact. The real issue at hand is a lack of leadership to attain a concensus among the other four members of Council to set a budget for the next five years. He, like our Commander in Chief, has a habit of blaming previous administrations instead of rolling up his sleeves and getting to the task at hand.

Like you, I have a vehicle that meets absolutely no emmission standards but runs just fine. I also have a weed eater that likely emits more polution than my old Vette and any five gas carts in town combined. As of today, I've heard nothing about banning weedeaters.

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Haddix:The feds are looking at tighten...

emission standards to the point that two stroke engines cannot achieve it. Four stroke engines are not going to be eliminated.

If you need someone as a technical subject matter expert I'm available but, I'm not cheap. If you want cheap, go ask my buddy Courthouserules.

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Two Stroke Gas Engines v. Four-Strokes

Though the industry has been changing for the last few yrs, there are an awful lot of two-stroke outboard motors in service and I can't blv that they will just be banned completely. While cleaner, quieter and more economical to operate, four-strokes are more costly to purchase. You can get a Yamaha Golf Cart w/four-stroke motor starting at $5,000!

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Gym

Yep those old OMC (Evinrudes - Jonson's), Chrysler's, and my favorite the British Seagull will be around until parts are just no longer available. I suspect parts for those Chrysler outboards are getting very rare.

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Cy & Outboards

Yep, in 19786, when I was in Berlin, I had a 50hp Johnson hung n the back of a 15ft wood speedboat. Damn thing musta weighed 200 lbs! And it got stolen from my storage rm in the basement of my military quarters!. Outboards were VERY expensive in Germany. Also had a 100hp Mercury on a 17 ft SeaRay around 1988. Sold it all after kids became more interested in automobiles than boats and it just became a PITA to haul to a lake. I did keep it at a Marina at Lake Jackson one yr and in a slip at the Army Recreation Area at Lake Allatoona one yr.

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Gym - Wood Boats...

are a thing of beauty. You remember this old saying:

It used to iron men and wooden ships and now it's fiberglass boats and little boys.

MajorMike
MajorMike's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/20/2005
Cyclist

They already had cheap (or free), they got exactly what they paid for. They would be much, much better off buying some of your time while there is still time to do so. I fear they are in decision justification mode rather than research mode.

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
MajorMike

I suspect you're right.

SPQR
SPQR's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2007
Major Mike

Just before the close of the meeting Fleish brought the devaluation issue up.

Haddix said he didn't believe it Imker said not true you can always sell them on Craig's list.
Do these two live in the same real world I do?

If you weren't there it was a kangaroo court complete with a bogus survey and bogus "findings" by city staff. Benefits of gas golf carts brought up were totally disregarded. I felt like I was in a scene from Alice in Wonderland.

I would be in favor of and support your association

SPQR
SPQR's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/15/2007
converting to alternative fuel

I have begun converting my orange gas powered golf cart to diesel.

Courthouserules
Courthouserules's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/02/2010
SPQR

Diesel really stinks----whew! Will sound like a semi tractor in a garage!

Gator
Gator's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/19/2006
Are You Kidding Me?

This is a TOTAL waste of time. I love my electric cart and have no desire to own a gas powered golf cart, but there is no compelling reason to ban gas golf carts. I would rather they ban orange golf carts. That color offends me greatly.

Courthouserules
Courthouserules's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/02/2010
Gas Carts

I will have to admit and continue to be surprised that politicians can come up with answers to current problems that changes nothing, therefore losing no votes!!

By 2020 (if it is ever taken off the table) there will be as few gas carts as gas autos!
Apparently they pose less problems anyway than cart rental and sales businesses do without their sales.
Besides most of us now living won't care in 2020!

Now the next stupid thing if there are further complaints is to try for 2018 or 2017, maybe.

Me, I'm for 2050! Let's vote on it in the blogs and let that stand!

pumpkin
pumpkin's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/19/2009
AMEN COURTHOUSERULES

These people spend more time bringing up issues kicking them around and tabeling than anyone I know. That's what you're paying them for they need something to make them look busy. Now go down to city hall and take a look, who knows when anyone is on break they are always standing around talking, scratching or meeting.

Courthouserules
Courthouserules's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/02/2010
pumpkin

Are you speaking of male or female "scratchers?"
Scratching is bad but standing around or sitting around or talking is standard 65% of the time there!
We took away eight hours of work in manufacturing and put people on the payroll in offices and at computers at 35% efficiency!
However, they consider themselves overworked and unappreciated!

Concerned Citizen
Concerned Citizen's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/26/2005
Pumpkin$

This is too funny. Dollar replies to himself with a "amen" comment. The only person silly enough to agree with anything this guy has to say would be silly enough to carry on a conversation with himself!

Courthouserules
Courthouserules's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/02/2010
concerned?

You are a little thick today!
Pumpkin answered, not me!
You ass u me to much!

Recent Comments