God’s ‘scandalous’ grace covers gays

I was sad to see almost an entire page (July 3, Page A4), including a political cartoon, bemoaning recent advances in gay rights.

I’d like to assert that it is possible to be a devout Christian and agree with the Supreme Court decision overturning DOMA (the defense of marriage act).

And, yes, it is possible to study Holy Scripture and conclude that same-sex marriage is an acceptable expression of love in the eyes of God.

And it’s also possible for a church to welcome all people (and their families), knowing that each of us is there only because of Our Father’s scandalous grace.

I know it is possible because I am such a Christian, and my church (The Episcopal Church) is such a church.

Suzanne Sports
Peachtree City, Ga.

RKS
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Separation

Separation of Church and State is implied by the First Amendment to the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

NUK_1
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Secular government

It's what a lot of Americans yell for in every OTHER country like Egypt and Muslim countries to establish, but here? Not so much, especially those who follow people like Mike Huckabee and faux historian/kook David Barton.

zoes
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Christians and the Constitution

I really need to say this.

The Bible says clearly that homosexuality is a sin. It says many other things clearly, too, i.e. love thy neighbor, etc.

The Constitution says clearly that all persons are created equal. There is also that pesky separation of church and state.

Therefore, believe the Bible, practice your religion and allow the government to treat everyone equally. Keeping these things separate.

This seems so simple to me.

ZoeS

Joe Kawfi
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zoes

Let me guess; You were edumicated in a government school.

There is no such thing as the 'separation of church of state' in the constitution. Your liberal bedwetting teachers probably taught that to you, and so you come by it dishonestly, but nonetheless it is just a flat out lie.

The framers clearly stated that the government shall not be allowed establish a church. (Such as the Church of England, which was started by Henry VIII) The constitution states nothing about a separation of church and state. In fact, our country was founded upon Christian principles.

Just look at the Church of obama that the liberals in the media worship everyday. Talk about blind faith.

S. Lindsey
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Not in the Constitution...

...Separation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution..It's a common misperception.

zoes
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Fine

I am certainly no government, historian, or anyone who can quote the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.

I DO know that this county is created on all men (persons) are created equal. That was really my point.

Just to educate me - I need it - where does separation of church and state show up as part of our foundation?

ZoeS

stranger than f...
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Wall of separation is from Jefferson

The wall of separation between church and state appears in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist. Follow this link:

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

As you can see, Mr. Jefferson is rationally explaining the non-establishment clause in the 1st amendment to the Constitution. Thankfully, his wise interpretation has become so familiar that most people believe that it was actually written by Madison and incorporated into the Constitution.

Mr. Lindsay enjoys correcting people who make your error on this blog. However, your sentiment that a wall of separation exists between church and state is essential to the freedom of our secular society.

stranger than f...
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Congratulations, Ms. Sports

Congratulations for finding a religious community that shares your beliefs and meets your needs. It is heartening that your congregation has no need to impose these beliefs on others. Good for you!

brewster
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Holy Scripture study

It very well is possible to study Holy Scripture and conclude a variety of things - it's called "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". Nothing new in that regard.

The Wedge
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Jesus's Words

I will only use Jesus's words as denoted in the Bible:

Mark 10:6-9 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and join to his wife; 8And they two shall be one flesh: so then they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

Matthew 5: 17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished"

John 8:34-36 "Jesus replied, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Everyone who sins is a slave of sin.""

I will close my thoughts on Jesus and his mercy with the woman accused of adultery. He stated in John 8:11 "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.” He did not state that he did not condemn her so that she could feel free to sin some more...

Davids mom
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Thank you

We live in a country where we can practice our understanding of the truth and not be discriminated against.

Copper42
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I guess I missed the updated

I guess I missed the updated version of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 explain homosexuality is a sin. If the Bible states same sex relationships is a sin, then by definition, Gay marriage is wrong. I too am a Christian and like all of us, I have my struggles to walk the walk. Simply giving in on political correctness of same sex marriage has to stop.
I do believe God loves all of us. But to enter his kingdom, one must admitt their sin openly and ask for His forgiveness. You can't do that and continue to disobey Him.

Davids mom
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copper42

Paul was an apostle - not God. The words from Paul in I Corinthians 6:9 are:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Quote:

ef·fem·i·nate [adj. ih-fem-uh-nit; v. ih-fem-uh-neyt] Show IPA adjective, verb, ef·fem·i·nat·ed, ef·fem·i·nat·ing.
adjective
1.
(of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy.
2.
characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury.

Jesus, who represented The Christ more than any human alive - certainly had a better understanding of God's love than did Paul. What did Jesus say about 'effeminate'?

Do we prevent 'effeminate' men from entering our churches - as Christians?

Paul again wrote to Timothy: For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. What did Jesus say?

Same sex marriage has been a practiced but illegal act in this country since before J. Edgar Hoover - he and his partner were well known to the servants in his household - in those days the press did not publish such 'stuff' for the public to digest.

The Wedge
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Hmmmm
Davids mom wrote:

Jesus, who represented The Christ more than any human alive - certainly had a better understanding of God's love than did Paul. What did Jesus say about 'effeminate'?

1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son."

Davids mom
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Wedge

According to my understanding, we are all the children of God. Jesus the Christ demonstrated this better than any human by his divine spirituality. How's your demonstration coming?

brewster
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Someones child alright

Common misunderstanding. We are all God's creation, but you can't make a blanket statement "We are all God's children". We are not all the children of God - some are the child of the devil.

Davids mom
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The Christ - Spirit

We have to stop giving more power to the 'devil' than to omnipotent God. I guess it all depends on our understanding. No need to argue.

brewster
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Not our understanding

Our understanding seems right, but it is flawed. I am not giving the enemy "more power", he is a liar and thief, and a murderer from the beginning. But, you must study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of God. The "We are all God's children" statement is flat out wrong. I do like your challenge regarding our demonstration - that is a much stronger word than our witness.

RKS
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Let him who is without sin start tossing stones

I will discuss this topic with anyone who has not fornicated, committed adultery, been effeminate, been an idoleter, stolen, lied or perjured anyone - until then, I'd like to remind everyone that if you don't believe in being gay, don't be gay and mind your own business.

brewster
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MYOB? •The hottest place in

MYOB? •The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. MLK

RKS
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Brewster
brewster wrote:

MYOB? •The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. MLK

If God wants to send me to hell for not condemning a person for loving another human being, so be it. Which Bible verse is this referencing?

brewster
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Condemnation for love? Not

Condemnation for love? Not sure where you got that - I was just quoting MLK in response to your request to "mind your own business".

Newsboy
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Y'ALL WON'T LIKE THIS ,,,

After 37 years of "conversion therapy" the leadership of notoriously anti-gay Exodus International recently closed their doors and issued an apology for the "damage that has been caused," and an official statement was made that after four decades of working with countless people from the gay community, it was clear that sexual orientation "cannot be changed."

According to recent polls, 40 percent of homeless youth are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT)and suicide rates are three to four times higher. In addition, reparative therapy patients are not likely to "convert," but they do often suffer psychological damage and deep shame surrounding their sexuality. The American Psychological Association states that reparative therapy is in fact harmful, and that it "reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons." The state of California is actively working to ban conversion therapy for minors. And the list goes on.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mia-norton/the-downfall-of-exodus-internat...

Davids mom
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Newsboy

Thanks for sharing..

brewster
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Thank you California

Where would we be without California/Hollywood showing us the way?

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