'Walking sign' rules on hold pending poll of local businesses

What about charity carwash signs, other nonprofit events?

New restrictions on the use of “walking signs” in Peachtree City were put on hold by the city council at its meeting Thursday.

City staff was asked to look at creating an exception for non-profits and also to poll businesses on their current and potential future use of handheld “walking” signs.

But a majority of council appears set on instituting the new rules, with some significant concern about the potential for the hand-held signs to proliferate.

“My personal preference is to have an outright ban,” said Councilwoman Kim Learnard, citing the “dignity and spirit and intent” that makes Peachtree City unique. But Learnard said she was willing to agree to the compromise that put restrictions on the use of walking signs.

“Whereas right now we have two, three, maybe five businesses so advertising, in a year from now it could be 10 times that many and we have no restrictions on that,” Learnard said.

Councilwoman Vanessa Fleisch said she too was concerned with the potential for a future spike in the use of walking signs.
Councilman Eric Imker was the driving force behind the delay, asking city staff to poll local businesses to determine if they either use walking signs or plan to use walking signs.

The difference, he said, was that if a handful of businesses use it, that’s one thing, but “if we find out another 20-30 businesses want to do this, I think we have a problem in the city with the image we’d be creating.”

The restrictions under consideration would limit businesses to using walking signs no more than four times a year and up to five days at a time. Also, the rules would restrict the signs to be held by one person only, and the sign-holder must be located on the premises where the business is located.

The rules also spell out that the sign can be no more than six square feet in size, and the sign must not be thrown or spun to attract attention.

As to an exception for non-profit groups, it is possible the argument could be made that non-profit fundraisers — such as car washes and bake sales — are typically one-time events with little opportunity for sufficient promotion in advance.

While that wasn’t mentioned at the meeting, there is some significant sentiment on council to make some form of exception for non-profit groups if possible.

Businesses will be receiving a survey from the city in the next two weeks that will include a question about their current and future usage of walking signs, city officials said. Those results are expected to be shared with council at the May 19 meeting when the regulations will be brought back for consideration.

Imker also asked city staff to look into whether the city legally can restrict the number of businesses using walking signs per day to say five or so.

“My gut tells me no, we couldn’t do that, but I’d want to confirm it,” replied City Attorney Ted Meeker.

Councilman Doug Sturbaum also wanted more feedback from city staff on the location requirements.

The location restrictions would hurt the walking sign used by The Picnic Basket restaurant, which has the permission of Hella to deploy its walking sign along the intersection of Ga. Highway 54 and Kelly Drive. Under the new rules, the restaurant would be limited to advertising on its property off Kelly Drive, which is not visible from the highway.

Debbie Sanders, the owner of The Picnic Basket and the nearby Curves gym, told council that the on-property limitation would constitute an effective walking sign “ban” for her business.

“I don’t have a high-visibility location for a lot of traffic and cars to come in,” Sanders said.

She argued that while she has used several types of print advertising, they are expensive, while the walking sign drives customers to her restaurant without a doubt. Sanders said she polls her customers to find out why they decided to come by.

“I can attribute about 45 percent of my daily customers to this sign because I ask every single one of them that comes in the door: ‘How did you hear about us?’” Sanders said.

Sanders also noted that no residents spoke in favor of the ordinance, leading her to question where the complaints about walking signs were coming from.

Mayor Don Haddix assured Sanders that he has gotten a number of complaints on the matter.

In asking for the delay, Imker said he didn’t want to make a rushed decision that could drastically affect someone’s business.

“I’m not in a hurry to see somebody go out of business because we make a rash decision,” Imker said.

City Manager Jim Pennington said similar restrictions have been adopted in other communities in which he has worked, and in some cases other cities have had non-profit groups challenge the walking signs in court.

The goal, Pennington said, is finding the balance, acknowledging that the economy is challenging “but we also have to protect the city and its appearance and the quality of life.”

Mike Healy, the owner of Mike and C’s restaurant, asked if the city would be applying the new walking sign rules to politicians and those seeking office. He was told that a recent Georgia law struck down the city’s ability to restrict political speech.

Healy also suggested grandfathering in existing businesses and implementing the restrictions only on new businesses. But Meeker noted that could be a significant hindrance to enforcement since it would be difficult for the city to keep track of when a particular business opened, for example.

===============================================

1st online version

New restrictions on the use of "walking signs" in Peachtree City were put on hold by the city council tonight (Thursday, April 7).

Councilman Eric Imker was the driving force behind the delay, asking city staff to poll local businesses to determine

if they either use walking signs or plan to use walking signs. The difference, he said, was that if a handful of businesses use it, that's one thing ... but if 30 or so either do so or plan to, that's yet another matter.

Several council members said they were concerned about a proliferation of the hand-held signs, which some businesses argue are the difference between success and failure.

The restrictions under consideration would limit businesses to using walking signs no more than four times a year and up to five days at a time. Also, the rules would restrict the signs to be held by one person only, and the sign-holder must be located on the premises where the business is located.

That would hurt the walking sign used by The Picnic Basket restaurant, which has the permission of Hella to deploy its walking sign along the intersection of Ga. Highway 54 and Kelly Drive. Under the new rules, the restaurant would be limited to advertising on its property off Kelly Drive, which is not visible from the highway.

Debbie Sanders, the owner of The Picnic Basket and the nearby Curves gym, told council that the on-property limitation would constitute an effective walking sign "ban" for her business.

"I don't have a high-visibility location for a lot of traffic and cars to come in," Sanders said.

She argued that other forms of print advertising are expensive although she has used some, but the walking sign drives customers to her restaurant without a doubt. Sanders said she knows this because she polls her customers to find out why they decided to come by.

"I can attribute about 45 percent of my daily customers to this sign because I ask every single one of them that comes in the door: 'How did you hear about us?'" Sanders said.

Robert W. Morgan
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Ladies, stop embarrassing yourselves. Let me handle it for you.

I'm tired of having to solve every problem, but here goes.

First of all, it is a total ban on walking signs or nothing at all. These are either a terrible threat to our way of life or a meaningless distraction. No grey area. OK so far?

Then after you outline the language of the total ban, have an open hearing. 6 people only. 3 for. 3 against.

The 3 people that want the ban (and there are never more than 3 that propose these stupid ideas) can speak for 5 minutes each on how awful these walking signs are, the threat to public safety, how the fabric of our planned community will be torn apart by having to drive by the statue of liberty, and so on.

Then 3 people opposed to the ban will speak:
1. The picnic basket lady. She will simply say that you are proposing to put her out of business.
2. I'll be glad to take the number 2 slot where I will call you hypocrites for putting the picnic basket person out of business, but still plan on using walking signs to conduct your business - politics and getting re-elected. Since that will take only 1 minute, I will give 4 minutes to person #3 who will then have 9 minutes.
3. 9 minutes may not be enough, but person #3 can list all the other reasons this ban on walking signs is a bad idea and a fine example of a nanny state at work creating an anti-business enviornment at exactly the wrong time. Any volunteers for spot #3?

Then you all can tell the attendees and the rest of the city why you would vote for such an idiotic ban or why you would not. Then vote and let's end this.

Brer Rabbit
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What a buch of clowns

*** Short note to the PTC City Council***

You have much worse things to be concerned with that whether or not walking signs are tacky. I would think that you would do anything within your power to support local business people to keep their efforts afloat. But I guess I should have known better when you let a major industry walk away over a stupid sewer line. Better wise up! Those airline pilots aren't going to be able to keep you afloat forever. Newnan and Senioa are looking better all the time.

roundabout
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Brer Rabbit and Morgan

Walking Signs are a menace, aren't they? Snatch and grabbers are always looking for a place to sell absconded gold. How else can they find such places?

I really get scared, particularly in Fayetteville, when those odd looking dudes with the fez like hats and a tin can come ambling by my side window wanting donations. They walk right in the middle of the road!
Doesn't't the federal government pay for those hospitals they send some of that money?

It is odd though that we would be worried about these road clowns and then say nothing about a 6000 ashma index in the air and the dissolution of the sun ray cover over our heads by factories and cars and trucks!
Not to mention three wars, 14 trillion debt, crooked bankers, thieving Wall-streeters, and beer joints and liquor bars and stores!

With one out of 6 out of a decent job, the State owing BILLIONS to the feds for unemployment payments, and still our local fees and taxes expand!

Maybe the distraction of a sandwich seller and a gold buyer are required!

mudcat
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Fez vs. turban. Not sure which scares me more

They are both forms of Arab headgear are they not? And all Arabs are terrorists or is it all terrorists are Arabs? Anyway should they not be banned as well? They scare me a lot more than walking signs. I need a sponsor for this ban on city council - a real American. Maybe even a Native American. Any ideas?

roundabout
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Fez--Turban

Fezzes's are vwery simple tomato juice cans cut off an turnedupside doen on one's head and have a tassel.

Turbines's wrap around and are fluffy to keep one cooler.

Fez is generally Turkish or Iranian, Turban Paki or Indian.

They used to designate importance of the wearer like our top hats!

Iranians are not Arabs if that is important. Don't know about Turks.

Kinda like women's hats in church in the 40s and 50s! useless.

Busy Bee
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Turbans are Indian too

Asian Indian, that is. Kinda confusing isn't it.

normal
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I love the French, way to go

French burka ban: A law has come into force in France which makes it an offence for a Muslim woman to conceal her face behind a veil when in public.

It is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.

This is great. There is even a mega fine for husbands that make their wives where the rags on their faces.
I guess they can move out if they dont like it. Try walking into a bank here with a rag covering your face. Thats a no no

Robert W. Morgan
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Mike Healy makes good sense, but was edited out. Wonder why.

In the printed version of this article, Mike Healy was quoted as saying political walking signs should be banned if commercial walking signs were banned. Simply good common sense, but Mr. Healy was told that Georgia law cannot limit political free speech. Well now boys and girls, maybe so, but I can and I will use my limited power of the vote to right this wrong. Any politician that votes for this stupid walking sign ban (limited or total) and then shows up on the side of the road with a "Vote for me" sign is a dishonest hypocrite and will not get my vote. Even if it someone I support and otherwise would vote for - like Kim.

You can't have it both ways councilpeople - even if the law gives you a loophole to crawl through. If you want to be left alone to express your political views, fine. But understand business owners in this town would also like to be left alone to run their business. How hard is that to understand. Back off these people and focus on economic development. That helps everyone.

Edited Monday AM. In the updated version Mike Healy's quote is now included. And it is valid. Simply stated, if Georgia law protects your right of political free speech and commerce, why would you propose a law that restricts the picnic basket lady's rights? Huh?

mudcat
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I think it because she is a squaw/woman and therefore - inferior

In the Indian culture squaws are supposed to sit quietly and serve their masters. Picnic basket lady is not doing that and they are trying to scalp her business? Don't we have anyone on city council that is somewhat partial to the Indian culture? Maybe just someone who is just 1/8th Indian? Why can't we leave her alone. Picnic basket lady has the right to conduct her business as she sees fit, even if she wants a squaw in full Indian regalia whooping it up with her sign on Highway 74.

Maybe that would be a good image at the next city council meeting.

Do you think this would be happening if we had elected 3 ladies to council and mayor as I suggested?

Mike King
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Typical!

"I can attribute about 45 percent of my daily customers to this sign because I ask every single one of them that comes in the door: 'How did you hear about us?'" Sanders said.

Is there anything else this council needs to hear? Another delay, another 'duh' moment seized by His Honor.

Spyglass
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Delay Stall Postpone..

This council is famous for bringing up things, then doing nothing.

MajorMike
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Over regulation

"Several council members said they were concerned about a proliferation of the hand-held signs".

Yes, and I'm concerned that a storm may blow one of my tall Georgia pines over onto my house some day. Does that mean that I'm going to rush out and cut down all the trees in my yard? Probably not.

If it becomes a problem then address it. Until then, leave it alone. If it helps struggling businesses in these trying times, then (at least for the time being) encourage it!

Note to Mayor and Council: Over regulation is not a substitute for reasonable government. Try focusing on budget and encouraging new business for a change.

Investigate (supposedly numerous) complaints - sure. Respond with knee jerk reactions - no.

mudcat
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Hey Mike, let's make a walking sign and take it

to the council meeting. It would simply be a large photo of the "We buy gold" guy being stuffed into the back of a police car. Or better yet the Statue of Liberty person. Caption "Peachtree City doesn't need your stinkin' business"

I wonder if the 3 complainers that started this thing are the same 3 that got everyone riled up about gas golf carts? Seems like another attack on local businesses. Wonder where they plan to strike next. The Dog Park?

And by the way, if it only takes 3 people to get council to do something, how about the 3 (and now me) who have stated on here again and again for council to stop regulating and start concentrating on attracting new businesses to PTC. Does that count? Can we take some action on that?

Mike King
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MajorMike

Please understand that as good as I believe our new city manager to be, it will take time for a couple on council to realize that he is the adult in charge. Do you remember a scenario about a senior NCO and a young lieutenant? Of course, not saying that our mayor would make a pimple on a lieutenant's fourth point of contact.

AtHomeGym
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Mike King, Lieutenants & signs

Mike remember the story I told you about my 1st SGT in Basic throwing a Butter Bar THROUGH the Orderly Room screen door--and the Lt disappeared the next day, never to be seen in the AO again--I think that's called being in charge! Now if you want to see some signs,head on down to Adams Farm on 54. "no checks", "no credit cards", "no eating berries before paying", on and on. But those fresh strawberries sure are good--and plentiful.

roundabout
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No this, no that...

Doesn't work in regular stores!

I HAVE SEEN A FEW OF THOSE PLACES WITH THE, "NO EATING OR TASTING FOOD IN HERE; IF YOU BREAK IT YOU BUY IT; KEEP CHILDREN UNDER COMPLETE CONTROL HERE; IF YOU WANT TO SEE THIS ITEM, ASK; DO NOT HANDLE ANYTHING, ASK; WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO BOTHER US?"

I usually feel they don't need my business!

Mike King
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Gym

Yes, I remember and the lesson still applies. How have you been?
We need to get together for another adult beverage since my low beer indicator light is due to start flashing.

AtHomeGym
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Mike K. & LBIL

Just about any time. Only hard schedule I have is St Augustine, FL 19-22 Apr to rip some fish lips.

bladderq
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Walking Signs, Teabaggers & Libertearians

Another case of the above NIMY. I pass these several times a day and can't say it has any effect on my quality of life. I've never felt compelled to go home and git the unworn 10k jewels or pull in for the free coffee or sandwich deal. My question is, "Who does?" But it must work or they would not be paying for the service. I guess the case could be made..Don't put a sandwich shop off the beaten path. Something about: Location, Location, Location. I'm guessing rent is cheaper. I was more concerned that they managed to write an ordinance that would not allow high school club car washes. I mean how can you have a donation car wash w/out kids w/ signs? The commercial side is a fad & will fade. Let the marketplace decide. One solution to the gas golf cart was to have a 1 or 2 or 5 year inspection for noise & pollution. I think fewer people would have been willing to buy a new one & the present problem ones would have been brought in to acceptable limits. The government that governs least, governs best. Think globally, act locally.

IMNSHO
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Yes! Exactly!

I was going to write most of what you wrote here. And the other stuff you wrote, I agree with that, too.

Having been to The Picnic Basket, I can tell you that I will be surprised if they are there a year from now, and I doubt that a walking sign will make a difference or not. The place is adorable, but the food was just so-so. But the location is the worst part, and frankly, I don't feel they "deserve" to survive, having chosen such a poor location. And I sure as heck don't think they deserve any special consideration in the walking-sign ordinance.

Ninja Guy
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If Council Allows Walking Signs

of any sort for any length of time, then they should also order new city limit signs that read Welcome to Peachtree City--Just As Tacky as Newnan But Three Times the Taxes! Atta boy Imker, let's run PTC straight into the ground! Let's repeal those ordinances about sofas on the porches and cars on blocks in the driveway while we are at it! Let freedom ring!!!!

Swift Death to Any Sort of Regulations That Make PTC Nice!

I think Murray Rothbard said it best when he said

"In short, a person does not have a "right to freedom of speech"; what he does have is the right to hire a hall and address the people who enter the premises."

Go We Buy Gold Walking Sign Guy!

PTC Observer
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"Right to freedom of speech"

Entire context of Murray Rothbard's paper on "Human Rights", for those that are interested in this subject and what Mr. Rothbard was attempting say about rights.

http://mises.org/daily/2569

I think Ninja said it best:

"Yes, I Am Putting words in your mouth. I have to jazz them up to make them more interesting!"

Death to the idea of full disclosure!

Ninja Guy
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That Quote Was Perfectly Good

for indicating what Murray said about free speech. Without having to read that whole drawn out article, which I have many times over the years, he simply says that there there is no pure freedom of speech, only property rights. Basically, if you own or control the property, you can do as you please or regulate what goes on there, as in the movie theater example. Who owns/controls public property on behalf of the citizens? The government, that's who, so they get to determine what goes on there! Try having a pre-game cookout on the front steps of the capitol building the next time you go to a Braves game, demanding your right to use use public property anyway you please! See you in the pokey!

Full disclosure is overrated! Ask your kids about spring break in Panama City if you like full disclosure!

Go Braves. Home-Opener tonight! Huddy on the mound!

PTC Observer
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Ninja - and what

about walking signs on private property where the owner has given permission? I suppose you would restrict those property rights in favor of the "common good"?

The problem comes when "the public" owns the property. Government has proven not to be a very good steward of the property it owns. And if you are as well read as you say you are, then you can tell us why.

Perhaps you can give us a quote on this?

Go Bravos!

Ninja Guy
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Yes, I Believe In the Common Good

Used to not, but do now that I am done reading and started thinking! If you want to allow private property owners to totally control what takes place on their land, then you would have no trouble with Panasonic converting their facility on 74 into a nuclear waste dump to store all those half-melted radioactive rods from Japan! You might still like reading long-winded books about arcane ideas and regurgitating them here, but I have given that up in favor of pointing out the un-workabilty of pie-in-the-sky theories using all the knowledge I have accumulated to date, and with the help of Google! And, oh yes, trying to get three stars on every level of Angry Birds! Great invention that iPhone!

David Friedman is the guy you want to talk to. He took von Mises and the gang's ideas to the max! The Machinery of Freedom! You are about 60 years behind on your economic theories--catch up quick, the world is moving faster and faster! Post-capitalism is on the way. Computers and AI do away with the economic calculation problem of socialism! Study up before its too late! Look to Singapore for some of the answers today!

Zai jian!

I think David Friedman said it best when he said,

“Maybe the message is getting through.”

Go Yomiuri Giants!

MYTMITE
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Ninja, you shure do talk purty!

You sure make the rest of us look bad or is it badly??? Them sure are some purty words you write here and put some others, myself included, to shame. Well, I started to write this like Round, Bonkie et al, but just couldn't do it. Do really enjoy your posts.

Ninja Guy
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MYTMITE, Surely You

Jest!

I think Mark Twain said it best when he said,

"I can live for two months on a good compliment."

Long Live Compliments On My Purdy Words!

Go Hawks-If They Have An Once of Fight In Them Anymore!

roundabout
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myTcudn't

Thar ain't wun solitare reson why you cudn't spik plane ainglish ifn you wood wont to do so!
Hit air plum simpel efort to void shame. Jest no thet whut you saye air rite!

I spect minney folks'es larn whu theyuns no at spence uf nother nedeed larnin. I mene them mid US folks do spik fine clar spikin, but they air dum as doornobs bout comon cents. cante ad up a colum uf nombers neither!

They actul cant writ cursinive atall.

PTC Observer
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Yes, Ninja

It's true that Austrian economic theory is old circa 1928 or so. However, the nature of man is much, much older and the truth is economic theory can change but the nature of man will not. The theory of Austrian Economic is based on human action. However, I suppose that idea went up in flames with your book burning.

Your unworkable examples have been used before in an attempt to marginalize freedom and make it sound crazy; however, I for one will always choose freedom over government. I trust in the idea that individuals will always make better overall decisions than governments. That markets are limited by human action and self-interest.

People, all people, work in their own self-interest. They always have, this is why your extreme speculations on what would happen if people were allowed to exercise personal freedom are laughable.

As it relates to Ninja's concept of freedom, I think Chicken Little said it best:

"The sky is falling the sky is falling!!!"

Go Braves

Ninja Guy
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Government Is Not A Priori Knowledge

Government IS A PRODUCT OF THE of the market, just like any other good or service. Under representative-type systems, citizens can choose to have anywhere from zero to total government control. You act as if a spaceship landed and out popped aliens called 'government workers' who are bent on implanting devices in our heads to control our minds! Face it PTCO, the government is us!

Also, you advocate the government handling the military, courts, and law enforcement. If government is so bad, then why have it handle such important matters?

I would think you would want the government to handle only low-level functions if anything, like making paper napkins and plastic cutlery, and leave the important stuff to the private sector! Raytheon can handle defense and Judge Judy and those other TV judges can set up competing court systems!

Civilizations in the past have flourished under many forms of government, so instead of hitching your wagon to pie-in-the-sky theories espoused by obscure economists, you should be looking forward at what may come after this great unraveling that will take place over the next 20-25 years (see The Fourth Turning).

There is no going back to the future in economics!

Also, you keep saying that people act in their own self-interest, which typically is understood to be profit-seeking activities. According to Ludwig, this is not the case. I have reprimanded you on this before, but here it is again, straight from Human Action.

I quote:

The incentive that impels a man to act is always some uneasiness.
1.

Cf. Lock, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, ed. Fraser (Oxford,
1894), I, 331-333; Leibniz, Nouveaux essais sur l’entendement humain, ed.
Fammarion, p. 119.

Do you think uneasiness and self-interest are exactly the same? I don't.

I had always thought that Ludwig came up with this on his own, but reading again I now see that he took it from someone else.

Anyway, blah, blah, blah. I'm tired of von Mises. Gotta devote my attention to the Braves game!

Swift Death to Re-reading of Human Action and Other Deadly Dull Economic Books Translated from German!

Go Braves!

PTC Observer
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Ninja - better

The fact is you have never read Human Action and you know it.

Government our government was not born out of markets, it was conceived on a principle that every person is born with certain rights and the function of government, our government, is there to protect these rights. That these rights were given to us by God by "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God", that there are certain truths concerning these rights "...these truths (are) self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These rights are A Priori.

How does man pursue happiness? Well generally it is all about the honest accumulation of property through abilities, skill and hard work.

Specifically our government (Constitution) was designed to protect its citizens from the power of the government itself and to protect these rights.

Now, that was the idea. However, our government has done anything but this, it has violated our rights at every turn, it has corrupted the meaning of its intent, and it has taken through force of law the property of its citizens. It has mortgaged its children's future. It has broken its promise to generations of Americans that have made the ultimate sacrifice to its ideals. Our government no longer protects our rights, it violates them.

Stick to baseball analysis Ninja, you are well qualified in this endeavor.

Busy Bee
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Pursuit of Happiness

PTCO says: "How does man pursue happiness? Well generally it is all about the honest accumulation of property through abilities, skill and hard work."

But Luke 12:13-34 says:

13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”

16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[b]? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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Busy Bee - Here's

Here's one that you missed:

You shall not steal. - Exodus 20:15

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Busy Bee

Hmm, doesn't seem like the creator that spoke to us through these words in the Bible would hand deliver unto us a constitution underpinned by the philosophy espoused by PTCO.

See, PTCO, the market rules!

I think Ludwig von Mises said it best when he said,

"Beings of human descent who either from birth or from acquired defects are unchangeably unfit for any action (in the strict sense of the term and not merely in the legal sense) are practically not human."

Quoted from Human Action on the mises.org website.

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PTCO Misses Mises On Happiness

PTCO, you keep missing the salient points of Human Action. I guess you read the version that comes in the kids meals at the Christian-values boneless chicken sandwich place!

Quoting you on happiness:

"Well generally it is all about the honest accumulation of property through abilities, skill and hard work."

To quote from Human Action posted on the mises.org site.

"But we must avoid current misunderstandings. The ultimate goal of human action is always the satisfaction of the acting man's desire. There is no standard of greater or lesser satisfaction other than individual judgments of value, different for various people and for the same people at various times. What makes a man feel uneasy and less uneasy is established by him from the standard of his own will and judgment, from his personal and subjective valuation. Nobody is in a position to decree what should make a fellow man happier."

One of the main points of Human Action is that the meaning of happiness is unique to each person!

Swift Death To The Misunderstanding of Human Action!

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Ninja - This

is not inconsistent with what I wrote in my post, I said "generally".

It is the pursuit of happiness that the process of human action. No one can pursue happiness with notion that government may take the output of your freedom against your wishes.

"The ultimate goal of human action is always the satisfaction of the acting man's desire."

Reading comprehension is a learned skill. Go practice.

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Mises Continues To Spin In Grave!

PTCO, relying on weasel words like 'generally' will get you nowhere?

Let's review. Mises most definitely said that happiness cannot be generally defined!

To quote again from Human action posted on the mises.org website,

"Nobody is in a position to decree what should make a fellow man happier.

To establish this fact does not refer in any way to the antitheses of egoism and altruism, of materialism and idealism, of individualism and collectivism, of atheism and religion. There are people whose only aim is to improve the condition of their own ego. There are other people with whom awareness of the troubles of their fellow men causes as much uneasiness as or even more uneasiness than their own wants. There are people who desire nothing else than the satisfaction of their appetites for sexual intercourse, food, drinks, fine homes, and other material things. But other men care more for the satisfactions commonly called "higher" and "ideal." There are individuals eager to adjust their actions to the requirements of social cooperation; there [p. 15] are, on the other hand, refractory people who defy the rules of social life. There are people for whom the ultimate goal of the earthly pilgrimage is the preparation for a life of bliss. There are other people who do not believe in the teachings of any religion and do not allow their actions to be influenced by them."

Can you point out anywhere in Human Acton where Von Mises indicates that happiness is even anywhere close to your generalization?

Perhaps Lew Rockwell sold you a special pair of glasses that lets you see words hidden from the ordinary eye!

Even Ludwig himself was not motivated by money or the accumulation of wealth, as he said to his dear wife,

"If you want a rich man,” he said, “don’t marry me. I am not interested in earning money. I am writing about money, but will never have much of my own” (Margit von Mises 1984, Skousen 1993)."

Swift Death To The Misreading of Human Action!

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Property as Happiness

Well Ninja, at least you are beginning to read Human Action, that's a start.

If properly is not the root of happiness then why do men accumulate it? Even churches accumulate it in the name of God, which brings satisfaction and happiness. The accumulation of wealth through property is a fact. The fact that men accumulate it shows that it brings them satisfaction (happiness).

In my generalization did I quote Mises as the basis of my argument?

However, Von Mises’ teaching is not inconsistent with this generalization; he merely states that it is impossible to determine EACH man's specific action that will bring a specific individual happiness. This is true, but the fact that it is the nature of man to work and increase his wealth that in a general way shows that this accumulation brings happiness to the majority of humankind. If it were not so we would still live in caves. In fact, the accumulation of wealth allows for men to "...care more for the satisfactions commonly called "higher" and "ideal." Without property and wealth and its accumulation men would not have the luxury of such things as practicing higher thought, they would be too busy looking for their next meal.

Von Mises never accumulated much this is also true, having been chased out of Europe by the coming socialist Nazi hoard; he couldn't find a job, even in America. Luckily NYU saw fit to give him a low paying teaching position but he never received the credit he deserved as the socialist economic philosophy of Keynes swept him off the pages of history.

Swift Death To The Misreading of Human Action!

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PTCO, Care to Offer Up Some

empirical evidence for the Creator? Seems without that, your argument is moot. Perhaps you can do in a paragraph or two what Hume et al could not in a whole book or two.

Swift Death to Arguments For A Priori Rights Not Based on Empirical Evidence Of The Grantor!

As for natural rights, you really think nature gives us the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Nope, the market gave us that. Nature gave us the food pyramid, at which you just happen to be at the top.

Also, yes I did read Human Action, one page at a time as I ripped them out to line my birdcage.

Sorry I did not respond yesterday. I was at church.

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Ninja - Look

out your window.

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PTCO, So You Have Opted

for the cosmological argument for the existence of God. Good choice. It's one of my favorites, too. Now, for two of the standard objections.

1. The universe could have come from nothing. Some fairly rigorous quantum models support this, but they are of course only models. However, in any case, it stretches logic to assume that we can reach definitive conclusions on the inner-workings of the entire universe based on our observations of particle behavior to date. After all, its a big universe out there and we only reached the moon about 40 years ago!

2. If there is an prime mover to the beginning of the universe, this does not imply that it is your god (ie, the one that wrote the constitution).

I think Ludwig von Mises said it best when he said

'Religion, not merely as a church but as a philosophy too, is like any other raft of spiritual life, a product of men's social co-operation.'

Quoted from Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis (Chapter 29)

Seems old Luddy considered religion to be a product of the market, which would make your Bible-based government a product of...dare we say it, the market!

Keep trying PTCO, you'll get there one day! Or, maybe not....

Go Braves!

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Ninja - Sorry

I missed this response by you.....

No, not really cosmological, but metaphysical ontology a philosophy that was a primary force in the development of the country. Most if not all founders believed in a Creator and the blessing he gave man a priori and man's ability to influence outcomes through free will. Mises was right; religion is organized and is a product of a social co-operation. Organization is socially cooperative by definition.

So, exactly what was your point? I suppose you deny the existence of a Creator and luckily that’s your right under the Constitution devised and developed by men who did. Somewhat of an irony isn’t it?

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PTCO, My Point Is

that the founders beliefs are not relevant to whether the rights provided in the Constitution are a priori. The Egyptians believed that Ra was a priori as well. Does that make Ra real? Did the Puritan's belief in witchcraft make it a priori knowledge? Don't think so.

Back to my original point, just as religion, government is a product of social co-cooperation, ie, the market. Once a government no longer functions as a framework for social cooperation, it is discarded for another, just as the founders lived with monarchy for a while, but discarded it for something else.

No, I do not deny the existence of a creator. That would be foolish to say that I have all the available knowledge necessary to make such a bold claim. It would also meaning that I am wasting all that time I spend at church each week!

I think von Mises said it best when he said,

"But all efforts to find support for the institution of private property generally, and for private ownership in the means of production in particular, in the teachings of Christ are quite vain."

Swift Death to the Private Ownership Of the Means of Production, In The Name of Jesus, Amen!

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Your point - Ninja

Not relevant to you I suppose but it was certainly relevant to early 18th century philosophy and the outgrowth of the idea that God in His infinite wisdom granted these rights a priori. Not saying that you aren't bright but I think I will take Locke, Hume, and Kant over your point. The fact that the Constitution exists at all makes God's a priori rights very relevant, it was and is the basis for the law of the land. You can deny it of course, but the fundamental truth is in its conception based on human action, people use their lives (time), labor, abilities, and skill to accumulate wealth (property). Since life and liberty is God given to every man, by extension so is the product of these two rights, property. All God given and not to be taken by force.

Now you seem to be suggesting that our government no longer functions as a framework for social cooperation, therefore it is invalid, and I would agree to some extent. However, the basis of the agreement on my part deals with the notion that the Constitution is a contract between the government and the people. This contract has in fact been broken through a redistributive policy that violates the a priori of God given rights.

As to your quote of Mises, as a Jew he didn’t believe that Fundamentalist Christianity supported the notion of private property and ownership. The New Gospel in fact preaches the opposite as Busy Bee has pointed out. However, support for private property and ownership is found in the Eighth Commandment: “Thou shalt not steal”. In my view this is the Biblical basis for private property, limits on government redistribution, and taxes. If one person has no right to use force to take your property, a majority of people that have no right individually to take your property shouldn't be allowed under the force of law to do so. It is a violation of my right to property. For more background on this subject read: "Faith and Freedom, 1949-1960," in The Conservative Press in Twentieth-Century America, Ronald Lora and William Henry Longton – There you will find direct support by Von Mises for Revisionist Christianity the Spiritual Mobilization of the 1950’s and the work ethos.

If you want swift death of private ownership of the means of production I don’t believe you need to use Jesus exclusively as your basis, but He would be a good start as He was a Prophet and not of this material world. After all, the Catholic Church which Saint Peter founded has been at the forefront of the communal philosophy for millennium.

Swift death to trite and meaningless swift death assertions

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PTC Observer

I tried reading your comments of late 4/08, and frankly the sound like this:

Government our government was not born out of markets it was born to protect our rights given to us from God and nature and nature's God. These rights have truths and are evident to some, I suppose. Then maybe the Constitution or preamble gave us those rights and God simply approved them. (certain unalienable rights).
We then pursue money which is happiness by hard work.

But the government does the opposite to us. At every turn. It even takes our property. It also has broken it's promise to dead people.

Baseball is more difficult to evaluate--especially with steroids available. Half of our Pro football players have brain injuries, also. HALF OF OUR PRO BASKETBALL PLAYERS LOVE NIGHT CLUBS AND WIMMEN!

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