Union ‘parasites’ — You mean our teachers, public safety workers?

I wasn’t going to bother to write until I saw the photo in Saturday’s Citizen. The signs said “Time to Stop these Union Parasites” and “Unions Greedy Socialists.”

Terry Garlock wrote about unions in his column. He wrote: “The state collects union dues as a deduction from member paychecks, passing the money on to the unions, who use that money to contribute heavily to Democrat election campaigns”.

Now this is an assertion by Mr. Garlock and undoubtedly the wellspring for the remainder of his drivel. I need a drum-roll here: Terry since you made the accusation, how much of their teachers’ dues are used to support Democrats?

And don’t include those donations made freely to Political Action Committees. I realize it’s fun to be Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh; just make the wild accusation and move on, but I’m calling you out. Surely you’ve done your homework before putting it in the newspaper.

And of course Terry hates collective bargaining. While this practice is suddenly the spawn of the devil, it only means people are able to unite their voice, elect leaders who bargain in good faith with their employers.

No one objects when the holders of big capital do this. As a matter of fact it is a Republican mantra that governance at the source is always better; that decisions are far more relevant when they take place close to the people who are affected.

Terry suggests that a bureaucratic board assembled somewhere in the dark reaches of a state capital can understand and dictate far better, the pay and benefits of state workers. So this month we are affording you all free health insurance, as long as you take yourself to Dr. Evil’s clinic here in Madison. Undoubtedly no shenanigans can occur with this system.

Ironically the unions in Wisconsin had already agreed to work with the governor who seems to think himself another Ron Reagan, ready to crush unions with a single blow.

Which brings me to the picture. The parasites and socialists who teach our kids every day. The ones who protect our homes and lives. The ones who make sure the water flows and the detritus continues to move downstream. You know ... those socialist parasites.

I guess the tea party jerks in that picture would consider my mother and father union socialist parasites. My mother came from poverty in Bridgeport, Conn., a child of the Depression who was so smart she made a perfect score on her nursing boards.

My father quit school at 17 to join the Navy; was on Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944; picked up the shattered bodies of the 800 men killed on the Leopoldville Christmas 1944; returned to marry a beautiful nurse and raise nine children.

He installed and fixed phones and phone lines. He commanded the local VFW and American Legion. He worked 100 hours per week, climbing polls in 20 degree below zero weather.

He became a union rep to help bargain for wages and working conditions for the men just like him. He did this on top of working 100 hours a week.

He did this so my mother could stay home and raise their nine children after which she went back to nursing. Their nine children went on to collect doctorates and master’s degrees, to work in things as diverse as animal medicine to real estate to teaching. None ever collected unemployment or took a dime from the government nor did their parents.

I remember flying in the Balkans during the early troubled times, looking down at their shattered society and wondering how such hatred could be manifest everywhere I looked. I am beginning to understand. Proud Union Man,

Timothy J. Parker

Peachtree City, Ga.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/30/2005
Neal Boortz: Public union talks lock out taxpayers

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/neal-boortz-public-union-861337.html

Interesting. Foolish me, I always thought that teachers, law enforcement, etc. were 'taxpayers'.

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
DM,Boortz & Taxpayers

I believe what he is saying is that none of the taxpayers other than the Govt employees involved have a say in whether or not they will be forced to pay higher taxes in order to satisfy the decision made by the Govt entity. Do you dispute the scenarios he presents? If so, give us your view. Thanks.

Davids mom
Davids mom's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/30/2005
AHG

I don't dispute his vision as seen through his eyes - I just find it questionable to imply that the 'parasites' he is describing are not 'taxpayers'. I guess those who may use financial advisors to utilize the tax code so that they have to pay as little tax as possible are also 'parasites' for trying to 'beat' the system. I rely totally on my tax preparer - for the tax tables, rules, etc. are too complex for this taxpayer. . . .but I am still a taxpayer - and try to follow the 'law'. I have not been in a union for years - but must say that the union people I worked with did their job. As management, I found that their demands were usually negotiated in good faith - with room for compromise. Very seldom did I find the unions that I worked with not cognizant of how their demands would affect their members - and no one wants higher taxes. But - in the case of teachers, if you are demanding a higher level of education for certification - which means a higher level of educational expense - one should be compensated for fairly for their education. Teachers select where they work not only based on salary but also working conditions. Fayette County is not at the top of the salary schedule when compared to nationwide salary schedules. Fayette County's teachers are not unionized. If working conditions and community support remains positive, unions will have a difficult time coming into Fayette County. Unions are strong where management and politics have been unfair. I am not familiar with Wisconsin - but this media uproar has galvanized the unions nationwide to fight for their existence. This action usually brings out the Democrats in force come election time. Interesting. I understand that Georgia is a ‘right to work’ state. Very few of us in our daily lives are not affected by the ‘work’ of a union worker somewhere in our country. . . so we all should be concerned about ‘working conditions’ in our country – whether we’re union or not. Many wonder why ‘certain’ unions are attacked and others are ‘left alone’. Just wondering.

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
DM, Boortz , Tax, & Unions

OK, You can surely disagree with his views. On taxes, I'm s Turbo Tax guy and have been for years. And I know nothing personally about unions, other than the fact that employees in my civil service job series were not allowed to be union members--never bothered me.

PTC Observer
PTC Observer's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/23/2007
Mr. Parker

errr...Bacon; you are a union man, what can I say.

However, you are right about one thing, people can collectively bargin anytime they would like; however the government doesn't need to help them to do it. Governmment has no role in this other than protecting the freedom and property of individuals, including union members. Even if those individual's happen to have their property wrapped up in a pension that invests in a company trying to break a union strike or in the words of the unionists "fat cats".

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
Protect the Property Rights

except for those that want to open a bikini-girl jello wrestling palace next to your house. Then, we have to use the willy nilly zoning laws of the government to crush them like bugs.

Oh, and one more thing, if you just so have to be born into a low caste and never-ending poverty in India, then you have to stay there. Why, well, uh, the nation state reigns supreme in protecting our liberty and property--at least mine anyway. Go away and read some von Mises--you bothering me kid!

Go University of Wisconsin Whatever-You-Ares (Badgers?)!

Chris P. Bacon
Chris P. Bacon's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/28/2010
Petey C, to ease your mind....

For the record, I am not Timothy J. Parker.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
PTC Observer

Oh, the government has to help them do it!
Otherwise their families aren't safe!

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
This is why Union jobs are going overseas

Lockheed Martin union could strike Sunday

"Lockheed said its wage package calls for increases of 3 percent, 3 percent and 2.5 percent each of the three years, totaling 8.5 percent. It also said it offered a $2,500 ratification bonus and an annual cost of living adjustment."

I hope Lockheed can get the instruction manuals translated to Hindi in time.

Unions = Extortion

carbonunit52
carbonunit52's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
bad_ptc

I bet that the union members vote to ratify the contract, but if they get stupid and do not, there will be no need to translate the manuals into Hindi, because English is spoken and written by a large percentage of the educated population in India.
I am pro-labor, but I am not pro-stupid. I do not believe it is proper to strike over wages and benefits, only over working conditions.

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
Carbon unit52: Your posts r 2 me as crack is to Charlie Sheen...

I can afford copious amounts, yet I still crave more. I pick through these blogs to find your posts like people sift through trail mix for the cashews and butterscotch chips. Keep the wit coming!!!!!!!!!!

normal
normal's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/11/2009
Times have change quit living in the past

That was a nice article, But times have changed for the worse thanks to the unions driving all the companies over seas for cheaper labor. They will not come back. Everything you spoke about can be accomplished today with out union parasites. Less than 12 percent of workers are unionized. When we get it to 0 the job will be done. Get a job work for your employer and if you dont like it then get to hell out. See thats freedom of the work place, just leave if you dont like the job. Seems rather simple to me. Pay raise by performance not because your union goons went on strike for it.

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
I Wonder If They Will Deduct

contributions from service men/women to help pay for the proper burial of the 9 Afghan boys killed in the quest to defend the US constitution? If the pilots of those helicopters were fundamentalist Christians, I wonder if those Afghan boys get a pass on full-immersion baptism on getting into heaven?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/world/asia/03afghan.html?hp

Just wondering....

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Ninja & Attackers

If insurgents had not attacked the NATO base, this would not have happened. Yes, it was bad, Yes, it was wrong but these things happen in warfare. So where is the blame line for the attackers? Oh, they get a pass huh? And of course this has zilch to do with the subj at hand.

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
Apple Store Robbery Ends in Shooting of AHG

No, AHG the NATO attackers do not get a pass. They are fully accountable for their actions.

Using your argument, if members of the Fayette County Sheriff's department are chasing a suspected Apple Computer Store robbery suspect in their helicopter and mistake you scooping up your free copy of the Citizen out of your driveway for said suspect and gun you down because they think Cal's Rag is an Uzi, are you going to, from purgatory, blame the Apple Store robbery suspects for your early demise?

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Ninja & Apple Store Robbery

Not a logical situation. I have more confidence in the Owners/Operators of Hawk-1 than you do. Otherwise, they get ONE shot!

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Ninja

Please, enough with the skewed logic. We live in a most imperfect world, and as humans we err. Make no mistake, mind you, that YOUR military takes every precaution to prevent collateral damage. You law enforcement, for the most part, does the same.

Would you be content without both a military and law enforcement? I think not.

Even a ninja knows when to depend on the good intentions of those empowered to protect the public.

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
Mike King You Are Correct

that I quite like living under the umbrella of the US military and the PTC police department. My intention is to illustrate to the hardcore war supporters that all is not black and white in military action. The good guys sometimes do bad things. Some are intentional and some are unintentional, but the effect on the counter-parties is the same, and if you reverse the situation, one might not like being on the losing end of some moral arguments for war.

To the Victors Belongs the Morality

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Ninja

As a veteran, my loyalty and sentiment lie with those in uniform. As an aside, I know of no "hardcore war supporters" on this site, but I could be mistaken.

The only moral argument I would offer for war would be: Is capitulation the right thing for your children's children? So I would summise that the two of us agree that there should be very clear parameters to become involved in conflict, and then once involved do all that is required to bring that conflict to a favorable conclusion soonest.

carbonunit52
carbonunit52's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
It seems to me

that the issue of these children being direct victims of warfare proves that this war is insane. Why look for sanity when there is none to find?

homefry
homefry's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/13/2010
unit52

All wars are insane but not all are avoidable. If one of the opposing sides chooses not to wear uniforms. Chooses to use women and children as soldiers and weapons, they have made the choice to put all of their women and children at risk. They blend in with civilians to blow things up. What happened is truly very sad. Until they identify themselves as warriors these tragedies will continue. They are to blame for this. Remember 9/11 they wore no uniforms. The Marine barracks in Beirut, no uniforms. USS Cole no uniforms the list could go on and on. If you you think that these soldiers that did the shooting will not carry this with them the rest of their lives you are gravely mistaken. I pray for them and the children lost and all the families.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
ninja, king,carbon,homefry

We fought Kuwait war in order to protect Saudi Arabia and massive amounts of oil The no fly would have contained Iraq long enough to resolve that one and not have to destroy Iran later for really nothing.

We should have wiped out what Bin Laden people we could find quickly and gotten right out of Afghanistan---maybe floating a couple of carriers off the coast for awhile.

As to these current stupid Kings and dictators in middle east and Africa, let them resolve their own problems. We could fed and clothe the refugees.
If the UN wants to get in--let them--then we will send a platoon to help.

I honestly thing that if George Bush had not been elected we would not have attacked Iraq. The machos made Rummie and Cheney itchy!

We are going to weaken our great military with such crap as all this if we don't stop mistakes. Powell and Rice were shut up!!!!! He got no knowledgeable loyal opposition to give advice either.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Round$nout

You opinions are obviously yours because anyone else posting such tripe would be branded delusional. You, of course, are in a league of your own.
Take your meds.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
King Mike

TRIPE: false or worthless speech. First two guts of goats, etc. Hog scrapings!

I did make 2-3 typos in that comment---I apologize for that. (The Iran part was supposed to be Iraq). That is Eraq, not Iraq, for pronunciation.

I do not think the notes about Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan is tripe.

Many, many intelligent people are now starting to write the books that agree that all that was a terrible mistake---just like Viet Nam---and possibly Korea.

As I said: We must learn something from history if we are to survive!

No conquering country ever has learned much. But the graveyards are full.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Round/Ninja

Funny, at first glance goat guts and human guts look pretty much the same.
Perhaps Ninja is right, we should let them gather firewood in peace, even knowing that it won't be long until they're gathering for someone else.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
Mike K

I think the "gathering of firewood" comment has more meaning than just firewood. I'm sure you understood that.

As to guts looking alike, I also think I get your meaning there. You may have seen such things.
I recall a friend who got his hand chopped off with an Avenger's prop--who was landing, as he sat ready for takeoff forward! I had liberty with him in Haiti the day before. Never goes away.

The "tripe" we discuss here is fun though.

By the way Cal's machine put my correspondence into a Spam detector and destroyed it the other day. I wasted a lot of time. It may be Spam to him, but not me.

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
Goat Guts

I agree with you roundabout. Never put much stock in the theory, but perhaps the 'military industrial complex' that Ike warned us about is at work? Especially with the kingdoms of the Middle East falling like dominoes in the direction of freedom, it seems it might be best for US to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan now and let those people gather firewood in peace for a while.

"The graveyards are full."

carbonunit52
carbonunit52's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
homefry

The insanity of the Afghanistan war begins with being in it in the first place. War is not inevitable and it is not a supernatural force, and this one certainly was avoidable.

bladderq
bladderq's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/02/2005
Of unions & War?

Not sure how this thread came to this but, I wish everyone would take the time to see the Academy Award nominated Sebastian Junger film 'Restrepo'
It is tragic & the legacy of the Bush-Chaney-Rumsfeld failure to get more than side tracked by their personal desire to go to war in Iraq. For no good reason. Afganistan should have been get in / get out w/ the forces that were sent on a wild goose chase. If you watch the film you will see why now after 10 years we will never be successful. You should also note the incompetence of our military leadership in this case all the way down to captain.

homefry
homefry's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/13/2010
unit52

I am making a point you will never understand. Some wars are not unavoidable unless you just say oh well I will do it their way. Lets take the American Indians they went to war with the American settler, did they not? They just happen to loose but they did go to war to fight for what they believed in. Were they correct? Was that a just war? Do I like that are young men and women are dying in Afghanistan? NO!! Afghanistan harbored training camps that led to 9/11 so we went to war to shut them down. I wish we lived in a world that is is full of teddy bears fishing but we do not. Have a good weekend.

carbonunit52
carbonunit52's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
homefry
Quote:

I am making a point you will never understand.

It is possible to understand what you are saying and still not agree, and that possibility exists with the carbonunit. I suppose I should use a picture of a scarred up mule for an avatar, that being a more accurate depiction. You have a good weekend too.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Ninja

A smart assed remark from someone who is obviously an expert in helicopter operations.

Those crewmembers are living a nightmare about now.

For what it's worth, it was a helicopter crew that exposed the incident at My Lai some 42 years ago.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
MIKE

I agree that war IS HELL!

Sending kids out for firewood during war time at the location is pure laziness and short respect for children.

I doubt this was a deliberate Gung Ho thing like My Lia was where someone wants to get even any way they find convenient.
As in Viet Nam or Korea, or Germany, or Japan, children were allowed to be stalking horses for attacks on us.
But it can promote an attitude of unnecessary force sometimes.

After all we killed and maimed hundreds of thousands (of kids and all) with huge bombs to save our own in the future.

Lets don't make the mistake in the middle east again by entering something unnecessarily. We are going to push so hard sometime and so often that we will be ground down.

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
Yes Mike

A SA remark. But, not putting down helicopter crews, just remarking on the general fog of war and the many moral ambiguities hidden therein. Many people think war is a straight forward affair--the good guys shooting the bad guys--which is simply not the case. Yes, I am sure the helo crews are living a nightmare about now, but those nine young boys are not living at all--just because they needed some firewood.

NUK_1
NUK_1's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/17/2007
War ain't pretty

That's the reality. There will be loss of innocent lives in order to get the job done. "Collateral damage" is unfortunate and painful to see, but it's going to happen. The US ties one hand behind its back in order to try and play nicer than other nations, and it costs the lives of its own soldiers and prolongs engagement.

Strangely enough, when NATO/US bombed Bosnia backed into the stone age and destroyed the country, leaving the survivors in a pile of rubble, not many anti-war types said squat since Clinton was Prez at the time. ETHNIC CLEANSING! GENOCIDE! were the claims and were later shown to be highly exaggerated, almost like WMD's/Iraq. Now, with a lot of women from that country involved in prostitution and victims of human trafficking, no one cares either. Meanwhile, ethnic cleansing and genocide flourish in parts of Africa and no one sees NATO involved whatsoever.

There are a ton of moral ambiguities about war and it becomes a little clearer when you don't engage in a lot of them, especially when there is no clear mission or that mission/objective changes every few months.

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
NUK_1's Kids Mowed Down By SWAT Team

Well, let's look at that from a different perspective. Say that your once pristine PTC subdivision has gone the way of Riverdale, and the local drug task force decides to take out the crack den across the street from your humble abode. Because of faulty intelligence, they mistake your kids playing kick the can in your front yard for the crack dealers. Thinking the can is a MAC10, they mow down all of your kids in a hail of taxpaer-funded bullets. Oops, sorry about that says the chief of police, we sincerely apologize. But, its all in the name of winning the war on drugs, so the slaying of your family was for a good cause. RIP NUK_1 Jr., NUK_2, and NUK_3. You will be remembered by some teddy bears, flowers, and sorrowful letters piled in the yard.

"That's the reality. There will be loss of innocent lives in order to get the job done."

The Wedge
The Wedge's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/09/2008
Irony

I find it mildly ironic that the chastisement for warfare and collateral damage is coming from a blogger with the sobriquet of "Ninja". In a quick wiki cut and paste, we have the following :"a ninja was a covert agent or mercenary of feudal Japan specializing in unorthodox arts of war. The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and assassination, as well as open combat in certain situations. The ninja, using covert methods of waging war, were contrasted with the samurai, who had strict rules about honor and combat."

Now I agree that Sherman said it best "War is Hell"

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
Wedge-San

I am a ninja in an intellectual sense, a covert agent or mercenary of semi-affluent suburban areas specializing in unorthodox arts of blogging. The functions of the intellectual ninja include espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and character-assassination, as well as open combat on certain fellow bloggers. The intellectual ninja, using covert methods of waging blogging war, are contrasted with real journalists, who have strict rules about honor and writing."

The Wedge
The Wedge's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/09/2008
Thanks Ninja-san

Although my position is a bit different than you, I understand where you are coming from on this. The jingo-istic do not consider the cost of these adventures just as the pacifist does not consider the costs of their pacifism. I did chuckle when I read your comment as you understood the spirit of my ironic calling statement. Take care and have a good weekend

Ninja Guy
Ninja Guy's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010
I Wonder If They Will Deduct

contributions from service men/women to help pay for the proper burial of the 9 Afghan boys killed in the quest to defend the US constitution? If the pilots of those helicopters were Christian, I wonder if those Afghan boys get a pass on full-immersion baptism on getting into heaven?

Just wondering....

Chris P. Bacon
Chris P. Bacon's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/28/2010
"You mean our teachers"?

"You mean our teachers?"

Sadly, that's EXACTLY who they mean.

The Daily Show had a fantastic compilation of all the public-teacher-bashing done on Fox News for the past few weeks: LINK

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Mr Parker

Do you really believe that it is the state's responsibility for employee payroll deduction? Or, could it be that if these rank and file members would have to remit their dues personnally a shortage might occur in the union coffers?

Collective bargaining was opposed by FDR and a past union president, and currently not available to federal workers. Are you saying state employees are more 'entitled'?

Could it be that while flying the Balkans that you were in uniform? Surely, you are not advocating unionizing the military. By the way, if you were wearing a uniform, what was that about not taking a dime from the government?

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
Mike King. How goes it this dreary day my man? Union Boogymen

Enjoying a rare weekend with my college girl around. But watching track meets with constant drizzle and temps in the 50s was not my dream weekend come true.

I find this union / military discussion interesting for a couple of reasons. I haven't said much because opinions here are as rigid as rebar.

Not trying to speak for Mr. Parker, but to answer this question of yours:

"By the way, if you were wearing a uniform, what was that about not taking a dime from the government?"

Mike, surely you are not equating serving in the military performing a job with "TAKING" government assistance. Being a combat-proven soldier or airman is equivalent to being on Welfare? I think you know the difference. You didn't take a dime from the military. You earned more than you could ever be compensated for in silver coins and green backs.

As to the Republican Villain du jour, unions: I wrote a response to Cyclist about Unions in The Airline industry ensuring pilots dont have to fly sick or fatigued. I pointed out the fact that unions focus is not just compensation, but safety. Unions fight maintenance shortcuts and anything else that compromises safety. Miners unions have fought, at times unsuccessfully, to ensure mandated safety measures like oxygen stations were complied with in the mines within which their members earn their livings. As we know, tragically a particular mine operator did not comply with Federally mandated safety measures and over a dozen lives were lost in his mine. Investigations showed that an anti-union administration had not held this mine operator to the letter of the law.

For the life of me, I do not know why Republicans and *conservatives who don't have the stones to just call themselves Republicans have now set their sights on the terribly overpaid, overcompensated teachers. These are the same *conservatives who scream "class warfare" if one mentions the 8 figure salaries of executives, yet they are more than willing to balance a budget on the backs of teachers. Teachers who come out of pocket for paper and post its and pencils. Truly amazing.

The flexibility of unions is proven in the many, many concessions ALPA pilots have accepted within the companies that employ them. We have accepted layoffs, pay cuts, and benefit cuts. It is simple distortion and dishonesty for any *conservative to call collective bargaining "extortion" as bad_ptc implies. To try and color the Wisconsin Teachers Union as "the problem" with their State's economy (even when they agreed to benefit cuts) begs the question: Why does non-union Texas have even BIGGER deficits? Why do Wisconsin schools outperform non-union Georgia public schools? Why will Gov. Walker not meet union members in the middle?

The GOP's attempt to slash and burn collective bargaining by making disingenuous arguments, in my opinion, is going to explode in the party's face. It's hard to portray a party as the party of America when it places a foot in the backs of American workers; teachers, firemen, policemen, pilots, mechanics, steel workers, hotel workers, textile workers, aviation industry employees, etc. Politically, I know there will be a shift of worker support away from the GOP, but in the big picture, I feel the GOP's use of a union boogyman is a tragic exploitation of working, tax-paying Americans.

Cheers.

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
You know Kevink.....

I only pointed out that Colgan Air was a represented by ALPA and had company provisions that addressed fatigue and illness without repercussions and yet that tragedy still happened.

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
Greetings my Jet-setting buddy Cyclist. Nee how ma?

I understand, my friend. I'm just trying to point out, post mortem in the Colgan case, the effects of company pressures versus union pressures on airline crew members. I'll paste my thesis from my response to bad_argument_ptc:

But as a matter of opinion, I will say again: Union representation makes it less likely that pilots will fly fatigued due to fear of reprisal. union representation makes it LESS likely that people will work when sick. I believe this is a good thing.

As a side note, I have talked to non-union corporate pilots who have had management encourage them to not write up broken items in the log book in an attempt to save on their maintenance budgets. Corporate forces are geered to saving money by any means necessary. At times, they may go to far. At times, unions may become greedy. Compromise allows us to find a safe place to meet somewhere in the middle.

Cheers, look forward to buying you a beverage.

sczi chen

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Cy & Colgan Incident

Fail to see what Union involvement or noninvolvement has to do with this incident--if I read it correctly, neither the Capt nor First Officer took proper corrective action when a stall was indicated.

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Hey Gym

You are correct. The old stick shaker thingy was doing what it was designed to do and for whatever reason the flight crew failed to take action. Nobody knows why. Airspeed control(above Vso/Vme and below Vne)is what keeps one alive.

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Cy & "Stick Shaker"

Guess that was wowking but obviously that acft did not have an automatic :"Stick Pusher" system for the elevator to change the AOA.

Cyclist
Cyclist's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2007
Gym- Stick Pusher

According to the NTSB report the stick pusher activated three different times.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
KevinK: Unions

In general, I agree with everything you said, but not necessarily as to the Pilot's Unions.

I agree there about safety and health issues. May not occur without a union.
However, I do think the airline unions took advantage of the "regulated" time of airlines to get fares, retirement and salaries way too high for pilots during that time. No one could afford to fly except corporations and wealthy people. Not the American way.

Without unions in the early manufacturing days (all industry, actually), we would have still been mistreating workers in this country. We still do some. Miners and pilots still think they are mistreated!

As to public employees!
There are places for unions and places where unions should not be needed.
I only see such employees as Policemen and firemen and our security civilians as not having the right to strike.

If employers of school teachers and the like allow unions and the right to strike, and then give in to too high salaries, then that is the fault of the employer's--not the teachers.
Some things are worth shutting down for awhile if necessary!

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
KevinK, what do you call demanding an 8.5% pay increase

or we'll strike? I call it what it is, EXTORTION plain and simple.

I have no problem whatsoever if these collective thugs are put out on the street and an entire new workforce is hired to replace them.

Georgia currently has an unemployment rate of 10.4% as per the GADoL.

Adding a few more wont rase it up a tenth of a percent.

Unions do nothing to better the product they produce unless faced with the loss of their jobs. Just look at the auto industry in this country if you need an example.

As far as ALPA is concerned, what that union does is cover your butt when you decide to cancel your trip assignment at the last minute on Christmas Eve. I believe it’s called ‘calling in slick’. The union has made sure that you still have job to come back to after you’ve screwed over your employer and forced another union member to take the trip you were assigned three weeks in advance. Not much of a safety issue there but just another lazy employee not willing to do the job they were assigned.

Yes I know it happens, a lot, as there are just too many airline people in this town that tell the same stories about having to fill in for some jerk that bailed at the last minuet.

Go union.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
bad

Don't give them the raise. Let them strike without any wages!

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
What more can I say, Bad_PTC?

You apparently are incredibly well informed and have talked to airline people and referenced GM as the prime example of Union = cause of financial meltdown (when not blaming Freddie, Fannie, dodd, or Frank).

Case closed. Excellent argument.

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
KevinK, I noticed

you didn't try to disprove my claim of employees calling in slick.

Funny thing Kevin, Honda and Toyota didn't need federal bailouts but then again they didn't have the UAW either. Go figure.

The way I've heard it you yourself have 'slicked out' more than once. Are you saying that you ALPA brothers are telling lies about you?

Yes, there are a lot of airline folks here that know one another. A number of them know you.

News flash Kevin, you're not the only one in PTC that works for Delta.

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
bad_argument_ptc

You just tied my mind in a knot. How does one go about "disproving a claim" that sick leave is sometimes abused?" Seriously. Of course any facet of human existence which can be abused or short-cutted is abused and short-cutted. Speed limits exceeded, tax deductions stretched or falsified, property undervalued, losses exaggerated.
No one says they aren't. But WHAT IS YOUR POINT? Should no one have sick leave?

What does the home country of Honda and Toyota have that we don't, bad_argument_PTC? UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!

US vs. Japanese Healthcare system: A first-hand view

How about that. The Japan-based Honda and Toyota corporations have an employee base, the majority of which, have single-payer (AKA communist socialist) health care. So to try and weigh the financial health of GM and Chrysler versus Toyota and Honda, solely on the basis of union representation is sophmoric and misguided. There are many, many more financial factors at play aren't there. And, BTW, The UAW represents Ford Mo Co as well. Does that help or hurt your argument?

The problem with generalized anti-union arguments such as yours is that you become prone to blame every negative economic factor on unions and every positive on the lack there-of. But the world is a bit more complex is it not? And the FACT remains that unions compromise, negotiate, and do not have the goal of killing the companies they work for (unlike some "Lorenzo" corporate execs of the recent past. They support their represented workers in obtaining the best working conditions possible; a very anti-*conservative concept I know.

As to what my "ALPA brothers" say about me. I am flattered that inquiring about me and my work life seems to give you meaning, but we are not in high school (well, at least I'm not). If you want to know my worklife, grow a pair and show your face the next time we all get together. We haven't lost anyone yet (even when Lindsey and Bacon got together). Otherwise the "I talk to people that talk to people that know you" thing seems reminiscent of gradeschool hearsay; not very useful to craft a serious argument or frame a debate. I hope you don't feel cheated that i have asked no one anything about you.

But as a matter of opinion, I will say again: Union representation makes it less likely that pilots will fly fatigued due to fear of reprisal. union representation makes it LESS likely that people will work when sick. I believe this is a good thing. You are entitled to your opinion.

Tell my ALPA brothers I said Hello.

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
KevinK, please try and stay on point

Were discussing unions in the US, not what happins in some foregin country.

UAW And Why Honda And Toyota Workers Are Not Interested

"As to what my "ALPA brothers" say about me. I am flattered that inquiring about me and my work life seems to give you meaning,"

Trust me Kevin I was not inquiring about you in any way shape or form. To the contrary, I was being told of certain local union members that don't respect their employer or fellow union brothers enough to accept the responsibilities they were tasked with. The statements were being made in an discussion about how certain union members make the entire organization look because of their action or inactions as the case may be.

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
bad_ptc you artful dodger you!

Stay on point bad_ptc? You contrasted GM and Chrysler with Honda and Toyota. You omitted FORD Mo. Co. because it hurt your argument. If you can tell me how to make a conversation about Honda, based in Japan, and Toyota, based in Japan, purely about "unions in the US" I am all ears bro.

Even more interesting: I mentioned you, by name, in my comments above. I'll past 'em here:

The flexibility of unions is proven in the many, many concessions ALPA pilots have accepted within the companies that employ them. We have accepted layoffs, pay cuts, and benefit cuts. It is simple distortion and dishonesty for any *conservative to call collective bargaining "extortion" as bad_ptc implies. To try and color the Wisconsin Teachers Union as "the problem" with their State's economy (even when they agreed to benefit cuts) begs the question: Why does non-union Texas have even BIGGER deficits? Why do Wisconsin schools outperform non-union Georgia public schools? Why will Gov. Walker not meet union members in the middle?

DUDE! You whistled right by the graveyard.

1) How are unions extortionists when I have given examples of their concessions?

2) If unions are "The problem," why do Wisconsin Schools outperform non-union Georgia schools? Why is non-unionized Texas more cash-strapped than unionized Wisconsin?

3) Oh yes, and why didn't UAW represented Ford need a bailout if the US auto industry's problem centered around unions?

Above you said this:

"Trust me Kevin I was not inquiring about you in any way shape or form. To the contrary, I was being told of certain local union members that don't respect their employer or fellow union brothers enough to accept the responsibilities they were tasked with."

bad_ptc, since you forgot what you wrote just inches above I will remind you, kay?

"The way I've heard it you yourself have 'slicked out' more than once. Are you saying that you ALPA brothers are telling lies about you?"

You've gone from school girl gossip to quibbling now? Your problem isn't with unions, but with a few individuals that make them look bad? You are driving me to drink, and I'm not going to resist the urge :-D.

I'll check back nightly for your response.

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
KevinK, I have responded to you

We'll just have to wait for the 'spam police' to release my post.

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
KevinK, my friend, I never mentioned GM, FORD or Chrysler

although you have written it three times now. I wrote UAW. There is a difference.

If you’re having trouble keeping up please reference UAW political contributions.

You will quickly see that instead of investing for their members the UAW spent some $52,000,000.00 on political contributions instead. Oh, my bad, they thought they were investing in their future.

I would suggest you Google, ‘Automotive bailouts, labor’ and read some of the articles that show up.

As for the ALPA accepting accepted layoffs, pay cuts, and benefit cuts ALPA spent millions trying to fight them. What ALPA accepted was a court order.

Did I happily agree with what happened to airline employees, NO. I was particularly upset with the way survivors benefits were stripped away. I still believe someone should hang for that one.

Kevin, a little research will set you free.
Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest

Sorry KevinK but again you stray off topic. I for one chose PTC/Fayette County for its educational benefits. When I used the EXTORTION phrase I was referring specifically to what was happening at Lockheed. Again, remedial reading comprehension is required on your part.

Another just for fun fact for you KevinK. Why do you suppose that more Georgia educated students go on to earn a Bachelor's degree or an advanced degree than the students in Wisconsin? Did a union have anything whatsoever to do with that?

Added:

Are there no Norma Rea’s in the 61,000+ members of ALPA?

Pilot Fatigue And "Crash Pads" Threaten Airline Safety

“Neither the pilots union nor the airline industry trade group, the Air Transport Association, would sit down with ABC News for a report on fatigue and commuting pilots.”

“In a statement from the Airline Pilots Association, the country's largest pilot union, they said: "Thank you for requesting an interview with ALPA on the issue of pilot fatigue. Unfortunately, we do not have anyone available at this time," wrote Linda Shotwell, head of ALPA communications.”

KevinK, this article has to be my all time favorite for the moment.

The Irrelevancy of ALPA in the 21st Century by Captain Brian Wilson

Joe Kawfi
Joe Kawfi's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/20/2009
Bad PTC

Some people are able to negotiate their own working conditions and contracts and don't need to hide behind a union.

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
Hi pot. Meet kettle. Kettle, meet "Joe kawfi"

The anonymous blogger who calls himself "joe kawfi" wrote:

"Some people are able to negotiate their own working conditions and contracts and don't need to hide behind a union."

In the words of the Cable Guy: I don't care who ya are, That's funny right there. Why does the person who uses the alias "joe kawfi" use an alias like "joe kawfi?"

Perhaps he is worried about REPRISAL for things he says. Perhaps he is scared someone like BPR will call him on his cell phone and ask to meet him. Perhaps he wants to avoid bad_ptc chatting with his girlfriends about "joe kawfi's" work experiences. Perhaps he is concerned people will find out he is a union employee. Any way you cut it, this person hides behind an alias unlike union members who "hide in front of" their union. You see, we arent afraid to tell people we are proud ALPA members, or UAW strong, or proud IEA members. Or proud steel workers. In a sense, we are everything "joe kawfi" is not.

And that there is just funny.

Joe Kawfi
Joe Kawfi's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/20/2009
Kevin K - What does the K stand for?

Or do you not show your last name because you want to remain anonymous?

Real men don't need unions to do the talking for them. Real men negotiate their own contracts.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
Kawfi

I have never known any except for owners, and $6-7,000,000 people!

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Bad & Calling in Sick

I distinctly remember when I first arrived at Ft McPherson in 1977 to work as a staff action officer on the FORSCOM staff--my first experience with civilians in the Federal work force. We had 2 secretaries in our Division who would alternate calling in sick on Mondays & Fridays--and it was tolerated by the military bosses. Wrong, any way you look at it, but just another example of human weakness and failure.

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
AHG, I always thought

Why call in sick when you feel like crap. If I'm feeling miserable why not share it with everyone.

I guess thats why I have over 2200 hours of sick leave.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
GYM

It still occurs somewhat I think.

Since you were an officer, are you saying that there was nothing you could do about it?

It really isn't the employees fault if it is allowed!

Even worse than that are the Administrative leaves given and they retire with unmpteen "unused" vacation and sick days!

Why, in your opinion, is this allowed by supervisors?

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
bad

Calling in sick is a standard now in all industry. If it is allowed, it will be taken.
As to the scenario you posed about Christmas, if true, then management needs to do something about that case.

I recall once, many years ago, when a company needed every hand every day---many were calling in sick especially on Monday and Friday.
HR sent people to their homes to see if they were sick. Several were caught putting on new roofs at home, farming, etc.
The unions won't fight such cases. if proved, in arbitration where discipline is administered.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
bad

It may not be out of bounds, but I would ask that you refrain from disclosing one's place of employment. This site has a history of those who cannot contain their 'envy'.

Thanks

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
MIKE

Not sure about the envy part.
I agree with the disclosure of a private person's place of employment or disclosure of personal problems.

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
Mike King, Good point

I do remember one or two that lost control.

carbonunit52
carbonunit52's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
bad_ptc

I would respectively like to point out that the 8.5% pay raise was not a union demand but a Lockheed offer. I do not belong to a union and never have. That does not mean that I have not benefited from the existence of labor unions, because I most certainly have, by the height of the bar that they have set for workers' wages and benefits. The American worker would be foolish to set idly by and let the right of collective bargaining disappear for anyone who wished to participate, because the existence of unions is a necessary balance between management and labor.
Management created the need for unions, unions did not create the need for management.
It could be said that unions have created the need for effective management. Both sides of the bargaining table are responsible for the outcome.

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
Carb, Lockheeds offer

That Lockheed offered 8.5% over three years and the union considered the offer to be unreasonable in today’s economy is the point I was attempting to make.

That you and many others have had pleasant experiences with your respective unions is a good thing.

I myself have been on both the union and mgnt. sides of the table. That said I see unions in a different light.

Contrary to KevinK's depiction if unions offering safety to their members it has been my experience that unions are only concerned with how much money they can suck out of a company before it goes bankrupt.

If a company isn’t treating its employees with respect, providing a safe working environment and a competitive wage, shame on them. Then management shouldn’t be surprised when sales fall off employees quit and the company goes under.

But when organized labor is offered 8.5% in this economy and threatens to strike because that’s not good enough, then I believe it’s the union needs to go.

Employees aren’t shackled to their desks. They can get up and go whenever they want. Trust me, there are a 1,000 unemployed people just waiting to take their places for less.

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Carbo & Effective Management

I would have thought that the need to be profitable would drive effective management in the private sector.

carbonunit52
carbonunit52's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/05/2008
Effective management

I would call it effective if labor did not need the efforts of a union. My point is that the very existence of unions helps the entire labor situation. I had a conversation once where I was told that talk of unionizing indicated to him that he had a management problem.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Kevin

Good afternoon to you my friend. My remark was pointed towards not he or a sibling had taken a dime. Now flying in the Balkans pretty much says military, but that is my assumption. And no, being in the military is not receiving government assistance, although the pay scale for most young families require such. Not trying to be argumentative, but Mr Parker makes a point then disputes what he says.

Granted, I'm not a fan of government unions for the simple reason that no one other than some panty waist politician actually represents the taxpayers. Now, unions have done great and wonderful things through the years, but they have also hindered progress, insured waste of tax revenue, and have abused the public trust. Mind you, that the issue is government unions, not those of the private sector.

The issue in Wisconsin is not with the teachers Union, but rather as it is throughout this country, that being that we as a people expect far too much from government. As such we have allowed it to grow to what is now out of control in size and consequence.

BTW, we still need to get our daughters introduced should yours remain interested in journalism.

kevink
kevink's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/07/2011
Lightning fast response Mike... as if you knew what I was writin

That's just weird.

She is plugging away at her non-paying journalistic internship as we speak. Next face to face let's get that ball rolling. I think I still have your info.

Cheers brother

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Kevin

Hopefully we can make that happen perhaps next week over a mug of cold brew with Hutch and others.

Have a great weekend!

Chris P. Bacon
Chris P. Bacon's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/28/2010
Mike King, regarding payroll deductions

Payroll deductions are a fact of life.

Companies withhold employee portions of Fed/State income taxes and FICA and remit them to the government on behalf of their employees.

Companies withhold the employee contributions to health insurance plans and remit them to insurance companies on behalf of their employees.

Heck, they'll withhold your contribution to the United Way from employees paychecks at their request and remit them to the United Way on the behalf of their employees.

With this in mind, my personal opinion is that it's a tad disingenuous to insist that union dues should NOT be withheld automagically from employee paychecks.

To me, that smacks of one of Observerofu's favorite logical fallacies: "Special Pleading" ....aka "But... that....that...that's DIFFERENT!"

Observerofu
Observerofu's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/14/2010
Word smithing is not your strong suit either

A logical fallacy is, more or less, an error of reasoning.

When someone adopts a position or argument, and/or tries to persuade someone else to adopt a position based on that argument and based on a bad piece of reasoning, they commit a fallacy.

However one must consider rather one is speaking of a Formal and/or Informal Fallacies.

These can include Deductive Fallacies.
Deductive Fallacies are generally Water-tight Arguments of reason. Meaning ones conclusion is based on documented evidence and one can produce such evidence in support of ones arguments. Simply disagreeing with another's argument fails this test.
For a deductive argument to be “valid” it must be absolutely impossible for both its premises to be true and its conclusion to be false.

An example would be:
1. Bloggers with weak arguments tend to turn to insults.

2. Bacon presents weak arguments.

3. Therefore Bacon tends to Insult.

It is simply not possible that both (1) and (2) are true and (3) is false, so this argument is deductively valid.

Inductive Fallacies
Inductive points /counter points doesn't need to be as ridged as deductive arguments in order to be good arguments. Good inductive points in an argument tend to lend support to their conclusions, but even if their premises are true then that doesn’t establish with 100% certainty that their conclusions are true.

An example of a strong inductive argument would be:
(1) Every day to date Bacon has used me in an (sic) argument.
Therefore:
(2) Bacon will use me again tomorrow.

Arguments that fail to meet the standards required of inductive arguments commit fallacies in addition to formal fallacies. It is these “informal fallacies” that bacon most commonly uses as an example of Logical Fallacies and thus uses such terms incorrectly.

Debates contains arguments consisting of points and premises , inferences inherent or otherwise, and conclusions and/or counter points. Arguments containing bad inferences, i.e. inferences where the premises don’t give adequate support for the conclusion drawn, can certainly be called fallacious.
If a fallacy contains a supposed error of reasoning, then strictly speaking such arguments are not fallacious.

Many such charges of Logical Fallacy are exactly this kind. Thus yet again proving Bacon fails to use the term correctly.

Arguments that commit fallacies of relevance rely on premises that aren’t relevant to the truth of the conclusion i.e.. bacon's continued use of points that have never been argued but yet claiming them to have been presented in his argument to boost his points to relevance.

The various irrelevant points are all fallacies of relevance, as are ad hominems. Well there is that word again.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
OOU

You could have least put it all in your own words!!!!

All people lie anyway--in their own way!

We have great needs for recognition and for admiration!

Chris P. Bacon
Chris P. Bacon's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/28/2010
Copyright © 2009 Logical Fallacies

Awwww....look who is passing off copyrighted articles as his own words again! Third time? Fourth?

LINK to copyrighted article

Tell Cal Beverly where he can stick his silly TOS agreement!

After all, you changed a couple of names in examples on that website from "Socrates" to "Bacon", right? So its only "sorta stealing".

Observerofu
Observerofu's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/14/2010
Still used incorrectly bacon

Also info pulled from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

and here:
http://nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

and here:
http://esgs.free.fr/uk/logic.htm

and a couple of other sites. To be sure I was correct.

You see I do a little research before I post.

You have used these words since your "Sniffle" days and you have used them incorrectly. Apparently using big words makes you feel more intelligent it might if used properly.

I personally don't care BUT if you want to pick apart someones else's argument by picking out ONE word in the argument well you can expect it to be done to you.

Didn't like did you. Had to call for help from mommy.

btw- on your attack of MY use of ad hominem I found the two articles you used. You failed to accredit these as well.

You see the difference is I don't ask some one else to fight my battles. I argue my points.

Chris P. Bacon
Chris P. Bacon's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/28/2010
Take the Bacon Challenge!
Observerofu wrote:

You see I do a little research before I post.

If by "research" you mean "outright theft of someone's copyrighted intellectual property that I can then pass off as my own", I'd have to agree with you.

Observerofu wrote:

You see the difference is I don't ask some one else to fight my battles. I argue my points.

You brought in a gentleman named Tim Holt (the original author of the material you stole) to fight your battle for you. I'll see if I can locate an email address for him. Perhaps he might have something to say about your "research".

I invite everyone to take the Bacon Challenge. Look at the information in the link I posted above and decide for yourself if Observerofu lifted someone else's verbiage and attempted to pass it off as his own.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Chrispy

With all due respect, yes they are a fact of life, so to speak. I simply don't agree with the concept of having a union having its revenue handed to them this way. Without this, they likely would falter in stature.

United way, Old Soldiers Home, etc-I have had deductions for them all through the years. I may be disingenuous, but ,damn it, to me it just seems wrong!

Yes, I know that opinions are like Roundabouts, we all have one.

Have a great day.

roundabout
roundabout's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011
MIKE

A bunch of KINGS are also having some trouble in the Suez area!

It is true that those who dig deep enough to warn against past mistakes are often thought of as roundabouts, as you put it.

It is round and it is about!

What do you call that bunch in the state administration who now are wanting to add sales taxes to everything, cut college scholarships to whatever gambling brings in, now against rounding up cheap workers--but not against it before the election, rigging gas sales tax to bring in the same or more money to the state no matter how much is sold or used?

Sounds as if you fellows have some roundabouts and kings there to write and yell about also!

Chris P. Bacon
Chris P. Bacon's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/28/2010
Geez Mike

Geez Mike, what fun are you?

You and I disagree on something so you're supposed to call me "fat" and tell me I'm a socialist.

This "agreeing to civilly disagree with one another" business sets an impossible standard for the scorched-Earth aficionados here who feel that even acknowledging an opinion that conflicts with their own is a sign of weakness!

Observerofu
Observerofu's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/14/2010
Ah a Satire piece

I get it.

Mike King
Mike King's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Well Chrispy...

...I'm really sorry that I'm no 'fun', but life would be simply too tedious should all those that disagree with you resort to acts such as you describe. I'm assured that you being called fat or a socialist only begets a smile or snicker and then provides the impetus for your occasional poisoned retorts.

Cheers!

bad_ptc
bad_ptc's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2006
King, not available to federal workers?

Google AFGE.

AtHomeGym
AtHomeGym's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/18/2007
Bad PTC, AFGE & Collective Bargaining

Bad, you are right, it is available to TSA Employees, but only recently--last Nov I believe). All employees are not allowed to be union members--in my 21 yr civil service career, my Job Series (GS-0132--Intelligence Operations Specialist) was not allowed to join a union (not that it ever bothered me).

Recent Comments