President not interfering with or forcing Catholics to do anything
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 5:34pm
Submitted by Letters to the ...
Submitted by Letters to the ...
“Catholic Answers: Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as ‘natural law.’ The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.
“But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end — procreation.
“NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. — Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004”
Anecdotally I would say that most American Catholics honor this dogma more in the breech (no pun intended) rather than the observation.
Putting aside the fact that new rules mandating the coverage of birth control will not apply to churches and their employees directly, I’m wondering what part of [Trey Hoffman’s] outrage should affect those of us who cringe at the idea of church controlling state.
I can imagine Trey’s outrage had he been a Mormon at the time Utah began applying for statehood and he faced the proposition of losing 10 or 12 wives.
I didn’t notice the same indignation from Trey when the Somalis were being fired for taking unpaid time to pray during the day. He undoubtedly does not agree with the honor killings which recently took place in Canada (the belief in which might be cultural as much as religious).
I propose to Mr. Hoffman that much mischief can be done in the name of religious freedom. The President is not interfering with Roman Catholic beliefs nor forcing anyone to use contraception.
However if the Roman Catholic Church intends to operate other institutions (hospitals, schools, charities, etc.), it needs to comply with the law. Any other view opens up the possibility of enormous mischief done in the name and under the guise of religious freedom.
Most of the people in the United States who are sexually active believe in contraception and most doctors would agree such a subject falls within the realm of public health. Every sperm is not precious, and every sperm is not great.
As far as his “recovery,” I don’t think President Obama nor any Democrat was counting on Hoffman’s or any other Republican’s vote.
And while this subject will provide ample fuel to the election year fire, even those of conservative persuasion should consider the ramifications of public policy and laws controlled by dogmatic and unswayable beliefs.
It is not what the founders envisioned nor in the end what we as a free people should accept.
Timothy J. Parker
Peachtree City, Ga.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 9:58am
#2
SLindsey, if Rick Santorum becomes President
he will have to grow government by at least two new Czar level cabinet positions.
The ‘Occupier of the Ovaries’ to keep track of the birth rates and the ‘Clitoris Inspector General’ to make sure nobody is enjoying themselves.
This is clearly a states rights issues and an overreach by the GOP.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:20am
#3
No need Gort
Obama has all anyone would ever need.
But I think Bill Clinton would be great for those jobs if they ever do come up.
Mon, 02/20/2012 - 7:41am
#4
SLindsey, actually I was
SLindsey, actually I was thinking you would be interested in the jobs.
With your experience in law enforcement and your unsuccessful invasion of Occupy Atlanta, I thought you would be a natural choice for either position.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:02am
#5
Don't worry, Gort
Don't worry, Gort. Neither Obama or Santorum will be elected POTUS in November, so the issue of contraception will no longer be an issue. Obama only brought it up as a distraction to his utter failure at trying to lead this country. He's nothing but a big embarassment at this point.
Mon, 02/20/2012 - 7:50am
#6
Hey Joe, it’s okay with me if
Hey Joe, it’s okay with me if Rick Santorum doesn’t become President and I haven’t given up on President Obama.
It was the Catholic Bishops that took the bait first and the Republicans snapped it up right after that.
Maybe the Catholic Bishops are trying to distract people’s attention away from their own little scandal, eh?
Most definitely the Republican’s are trying to distract people’s attention away from their job performance in Congress since the 2010 mid-term elections and what about the cast of characters they got running for President.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 7:01pm
#7
Typical Liberal Nonsense
Wake up lemmings! This is nothing more than an attempt by the bedwetting liberal wing to accuse Republicans of wanting to ban contraception.
We have nothing against contraception. In fact, we highly encourage that it be used by Liberals. The fewer the liberals, the better off the country and the world will be.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 7:27pm
#8
Joe, Joe, Joe
When you wake up the day after election day and Obama is still president and will be for the next four years, what you gonna do--Mexico or Canada?
Vote No On Republicans In Your Pants!
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 9:59am
#9
Ninja
You've obviously been smoking collards instead of eating them.
Prepuce Obama is the one that brought this issue of contraception to the forefront by creating a "right" to it. Obama is the one that is a threat to freedom and liberty in this country. He and his NLRB tried forcing Boeing out of South Carolina and now he is forcing all insurance companies to provide something that is available to everyone. The argument is about freedom and liberty, which Obama is trying to take away. He doesn't want to be a leader, he wants to be a dictator. You're delusional if you think that he will be re-elected in November.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 5:16pm
#10
Mr. Parker - I think
"..those of us who cringe at the idea of church controlling state."
you missed the point entirely, it's not about the church controlling the state. It's about the state controlling the individual. All of course for the "common good".
God knows no one is controlling the state that is quite evident in the fact that the state seems to want to control our every human action. In fact, the state wants to force us to buy something some of us don't want. Force is the key word here Mr. Parker. If you compel someone to act against their reasoned best interest you steal their freedom. The state then becomes the enemy of freedom not its protector. So, while you are worrying about the church taking over the state.....recognize that there are a great many people more worried about the state taking our freedom by force bit by bit.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 4:06pm
#11
When did anarchy become so fashionable?
The simple-minded idea that government is bad doesn't make sense. What do we want, anarchy?
I'm constantly hearing people say the government should stay out of our lives. The point of government is so that people can live together in peace. We have to share things; that's a fact. Do we need to share everything? No. Communism is a proven failure in every single nation that tried it, the ultimate example is North Korea.
However, when we constantly throw out simple-minded comments (including Reagan's quote that "Government is the problem" then we get nowhere. Grover Norquist says, "I want to get government small enough so I can drown it in the bathtub." What the heck does that mean? Anarchy?
What do we want to share? Roads, schools, fire departments?
Or should it be every man for himself? If that's the case, then each neighborhood (no...that's still sharing)...each family should hire it's own security guard (who can double as a firefighter), and build its own roads, pump its own water from a well, etc.
If you hate public education do you also hate public security (police)?
It seems to me that Democrats and Republicans love the idea of government-control when it's their leaders in power. When the other side's leaders are in power then government is bad.
It's just a big team sport, isn't it?
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 4:22pm
#12
YourGoodPalMike - Sorry
Government is good....if it is established for the right reasons. Our government was not established to "share things".
I think you need to read up on early American history something that has been pretty much been distorted and/or eliminated in our public school systems.
You are correct that big government is a bipartisan deal, it certainly is. There is NO difference in outcomes when either party controls the government, it simply gets bigger and more intrusive.....and more debt ridden.
The nature of government, any government, is that it seeks to increase its power. Our Constitution was established to preemptively disperse power so that this propensity for increased power would be eliminated or reduced. It has failed.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 7:20pm
#13
PTCO Says US Constitution Is A Failure!
Gosh Guru, you feeling okay today?! Been at that un-taxed whiskey again?! Why are you dissing your beloved US Constitution!? Have you no decency?! The collard eaters will have the long knives our for you! Stay out of Brooks!
I think John Quincy Adams said it best when he said
"Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your collards. I hope you will make good use of them."
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 7:50pm
#14
Ninja - dissing
Yes, I am dissing the US Constitution, it has failed to protect us from those that will enslave us. It has failed to control the development of the government Leviathan.
Now go eat your collards like a good Ninja.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 8:06pm
#15
PTCO, I Have to Agree with Jeff C
on your circular thinking! Let's see, the Constitution created the government yet at the same time fails to protect us from that which it created???? Huh..
Hey, ease up on the collard portion of your diet and increase the pinto bean portion--I think you need to increase your uptake of folate, magnesium, and potassium. Signs of ADHD should start to dissipate after a week or so. Meanwhile, keep the Mailbu in the driveway lest you got lost on Hw85 and wind up in Riverdale!
I think James Madison said it best when he said,
The advancement and diffusion of collards is the only guardian of true liberty.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 11:33pm
#16
Ninja - Oh
surprise you agree with JeffC, I would have never guessed it!
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 10:19am
#17
President forcing private businesses again
The problem with this mandate is the issue of freedom. The government should not be forcing insurance companies to provide something that is not health related. Contraception has nothing to do with health. People either choose to use it or not and insurance companies should not be forced to provide something that is readily available. The government likes to twist it by saying "providing access" to it. Everyone has access to contraception at their local grocery store. The government is overreaching in this case. What's next, they are going to mandate that insurance companies supply "free" razors so that David's mom can shave her mustache?
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 10:41pm
#18
Contraception has nothing to do with health
Right Grizz - tell that to the millions of women who died in childbirth during the past several millenia.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 2:08am
#19
Wow the Birth Control Pill is 1000's of years old..
Who woulda thunk it.
So what are you say bee? Child birth is dangerous so no one should attempt it?
Uhh... I don't think that would work out so well for the Human race...just saying.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:15am
#20
Perhaps some of those women throughout history
would have preferred to have fewer than 10 children and would have been glad to have something like the pill to allow them to have a better life and better health. Childbirth is dangerous, but I'm betting you haven't attempted it yourself.
I have given birth to two children and do not have any plans to have more. Thank God for birth control. (and collards!)
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:23am
#21
But..but Bee
So are you saying EVERY woman had 10 or more kids? Did Men have any responsibility for that condition at all?
Bee this has nothing to do with you or your Pills.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:48am
#22
Slindsey Comes Out of the Closet!
Stevie, now we know what you were really doing up there at the Occupy Atlanta gathering! It is now obvious that you were were part of an advance scout team for the GOP sex police! Your mission: Conduct manual erection checks and use thermal imaging equipment to detect basal temperature spikes in ovulating females and thereby head off any potential couplings unlikely to result in conception! Keep up the good work! Big Rick will be proud!
Put A Republican In Your Pants!
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:56am
#23
Ninja really on a Sunday morning this is what you got?
Get a life fruitcake.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:52am
#24
The Fruitcake Life!
Slindsey, you keep tossing me the ingredients so what else can I do but assemble them into fine and dandy fruitcakes for thoughtful digestion by our blogger community! Been to Claxton lately? How's Jared doing?
Vote GOP: Put a Republican In Your Pants!
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:50pm
#25
I don't know cupcake
I believe you said you were not here for Intelligent debates sooooo.....
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 2:57pm
#26
Ninja Guy & Contract Work
I see where Iran is now training women to become Ninja Assassins--perhaps there's some contract work for you there!BTW, think you can leave your "sharp sword of truth" at home--won't be of much use over there!
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 5:04pm
#27
AHG, Of Course I Sell
my services to the highest bidder, fanatical jihadist regimes included! But, I would not want to undergo the anatomical correction needed to secure a contract for service in the aforementioned Iranian group! Perhaps you could give me some of your saltpeter left over from your active duty days to use during the interview process!
I WOULD like to see the US adopt the old imperial Chinese system under which state administrators were all eunuchs!
I think Lao Zi said it best when he said,
'Running a large country is like cooking collards.'
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 7:34pm
#28
Ninja Guy & "Services"
Think you misunderstood my intent---don't think ya gotta BE one to train one! And to my knowledge, I never ingested any of that saltpeter stuff--and if I did, musta got an out of date batch!
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 8:15pm
#29
AHG and Services
Oh, I see now. Well, I don't think I could get my Farsi up to speed quick enough to land a trainer position! Although I might be able to train them by using ululation only! As for saltpeter, if you ate in the mess, I reckon you ingested!
I think Lord Byron said it best when he said:
'If I should meet thee After long years, How should I greet thee? - With silence and saltpeter.'
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 8:38pm
#30
Ninja Guy & Eating In The Messhall
Thankfully, most of my time as an unmarried soldier was spent at isolated detachments where we had our own civilian cook or we ate in local restaurants. And I doubt you'd have to speak Farsi to train those Iranian lovelies! I doubt that howling would get it done!
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 9:08pm
#31
Gym
I guess we need to inform Ninja of the antidote for saltpeter-collards! When eaten as a meal with bar-b-que(mustard based) and corn bread, those collards have been known to cure various maladies throughout the south.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 9:14pm
#32
Mike & Malady cures
Now you know I'm not gonna sign up to that Mustard=based Sauce---It's Vinegar or Nothing! Actually, I prefer no sauce at all and if it's smoked, chopped and seasoned properly, none is needed! But I sdon't need to tell you that butsome of these folks might not know.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 11:21pm
#33
Busy Bee, Those Deaths
were part of God's plan don't you know! God intended for each of those unions of sperm and egg to result in conception so that the life of both the mother and child could be taken at a specific moment in time! It's all part of God's plan don't you know! Big Rick knows God's plan for each of us and it includes a GOP fertility monitor in everyone's pants! This will allow us get around God's plan but keep in at the same time by charting basal temperatures, with a little help from cold showers and separate beds like on the Dick van Dyke show!
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 11:36pm
#34
It's good to know that the GOP
is opposed to big government.
So Ninja, are you quoting Horace in your tagline, or are you more of a fan of Wilfred Owen?
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 11:58pm
#35
Busy Bee and the Birds!
Quoting from Wilfred's poem rather than Horace. Wilfred was using the phrase satirically, whereas Horace was serious!
I think Abraham Lincoln said it best when he said,
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him collards."
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 10:00pm
#36
An intelligent statement
Contraception has nothing to do with health
NOT!
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 11:26pm
#37
Right wing Grizz, Joe, and others
Interesting turn of events. The stock market has gone up; the president's approval rating has improved; fewer Republicans are participating in the primaries; - and the topic of interest is ABORTION AND CONTRACEPTION!!
What happened to lack of jobs; failed economy; lack of leadership; failure in foreign relations? Someone must have thought this would be a good move to take away the interest from the current positive events for the country - but oops, they forgot the women's vote! Women, the majority of voters in both parties, are up in arms! A legislative body is discussing contraception and birth control WITHOUT A WOMAN'S INPUT; Catholics correctly are protecting their right to their belief - but the majority of Catholic women USE BIRTH CONTROL. Let's keep religion out of politics! And let's get back to discussing the solutions that will bring progress to our country. AND LETS KEEP GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE BEDROOM AND THE USE OF A WOMAN'S BODY.
A government of the people, by the people, for the people. We the people have turned what we should control over to special interest; big business; super pacs; etc. (And some want to say it's the fault of the Constitution?) It's our fault! If fewer than 60% of the eligible voters vote in the next national election - we have failed as a people. The Constitution stands as a wonderful document for guiding a republic /democracy. I heard someone say - but that's what we pay our legislators for - I shouldn't have to worry or get too involved. Well we paid them - and they have done next to nothing!! Get involved!! Get big business and super pacs out of our lives. Make up your mind and VOTE. Don't depend on negative or positive ads. Listen to the candidates; monitor what they say; the money of the PACS buys the ads - but NOT YOUR VOTE!!
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 11:46pm
#38
DM - Some
truth in that DM, I am certain that money doesn't buy your vote, but it buys a whole lot of other votes.
BTW, I never said that the Constitution was at fault. I said the Constitution has failed to protect our freedoms from those that would steal those freedoms. I suppose you think our freedoms aren't under constant attack by government? Let's do keep government out of our bedrooms and our lives.
Seems like putting words in other peoples mouths is a trait practiced by a lot of folks on this board.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 12:22am
#39
PTCO, Name One
freedom that any local, state, or federal official personally prevented you from engaging in today! Still waiting for where I can find the word 'police' in the US Constitution!
I think Ben Franklin said it best when he said,
"Man will ultimately be governed by God or by collards."
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 10:43am
#40
That's Right Grizz!
How dare the government mandate that insurance companies cover things like blood transfusions against Watchtower doctrine! And how about those pesky immunizations! Insurance companies should not be forced to cover them because some Christian conservatives are against them as counter to God's law! And how about Viagra coverage? Isn't impotence God's way of shutting down those that should no longer procreate! Childbirth coverage? Wasn't Jesus born in in a stable? Home or barn births are what God intended! We cannot allow the government dictate insurance coverage for unholy hospital births! What is next in this insurance madness--mandated coverage for upset stomachs due to the overeating of collards?
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 4:33pm
#41
Collards And the Married Girl!
Big Rick Santorum is going to save us from ourselves, as below (cut and pasted from some source or another under fair use rules).
Santorum has said that he wouldn't try to take away the birth control pill or condoms but that states should be free to ban them. He told a Christian blog last year that as president he would warn the nation about "the dangers of contraception" and the permissive culture it encourages. He's also questioned whether women should be in combat and said that "radical feminists" have undermined the traditional family by "convincing women that professional accomplishments are the key to happiness."
Hey gals, toss out that progesterone and quit them jobs--Big Rick knows what's best fer ya!
To keep those pesky viagra-charged hubbies at bay during the non-fertile times, just rub collards on your nether regions thrice a day--that's sure to cut out all them non-procreational activities! Testosterone is no match for collards!
Thanks Big Rick!
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 6:41am
#42
The lack of comments is probably the tell
I find it interesting that no one has commented on this letter. Are we afraid of making a statement which might go against the grain with the local Tea-Party? Perhaps, everyone agrees with Mr. Parker. Maybe everyone disagrees.
Personally, I find quite a lot of truth in the letter. I know, for some it might be difficult to admit, but our form of government does not allow for any religion to dictate the laws of the country. Many would disagree, insisting that we are a "Christian" nation and our laws are made to support those beliefs. Those who really understand the US Constitution, know better.
The more push there is from the Religious Right to make this nation a "Christian" nation, the more I see us moving toward an Iran-like theocracy. This is the beginning. Next, we will see the return of the Old Testament law--you know, "an eye for an eye." And if we believe that man didn't in any way interfere with the writing of the Ten Commandments, then what's up with the missing commandment--Thou shalt not rape? Seems mighty convenience coming from a male-dominated society to have forgotten that one....just saying.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:50pm
#43
Afraid of the TEA Party?
But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end — procreation.
Bunk.
This is about the stupidest fight I can imagine for the Republicans to bring up during the election. The Democrats are simply not going to let insurance companies deny women contraception.
There is nothing at all in the Bible about this. It is what it always has been; a means to control women. The days of a bunch of men deciding whether women have access to contraception is over. It doesn't really matter whether the Church or Trey or the Republican Party or their leading presidential candidate likes it or not.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 1:02pm
#44
You do know JeffC
that there is a very simple solution to all this fighting. Get government entirely out of health care and let people make their own decisions about what they want. What business is it of the government if I want or don't want contraception? For that matter, what business is it of yours?
Why is it that those that support government control on all sorts of levels believe that people simply can't make choices for themselves. What gives the government masters anymore insight into our lives than we ourselves?
We didn't "hire" the government to do our thinking for us. We are perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves, our families, and our religious beliefs.
Let's start by getting government out of taking over our health decisions. After that we can start working on getting them out of educating our kids too. And taking care of our energy needs, and taking care of....... well you pick, here's a list to pick from:
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 7:11pm
#45
Meanwhile in the real world PTCO
...let people make their own decisions about what they want.
By which you must mean let the people who run insurance companies make their own decisions about what they want to offer. Then from that menu of selected offerings people can then choose what they want.
What business is it of the government if I want or don't want contraception?
It suits me to have an opt-out. That's very different from not having an opt-in.
Why is it that those that support government control on all sorts of levels believe that people simply can't make choices for themselves
You argument is circular. You are supporting allowing the insurance companies to control and pre-decide if the people even have that option to choose. And let's not forget that this is exactly what they intend to do which is how this whole discussion came up. I am supporting a government regulation requiring that people have the option to choose.
. What gives the government masters anymore insight into our lives than we ourselves?
Nothing. I dare say it doesn't take any vast insight into the American psyche to realize that people are going to want coverage for contraceptives.
Your whole argument is about how the people should be able to choose and yet the course of action you're advocating will result in none of those people ever having the opportunity to make that choice. This is not a theoretical argument. Insurance companies are lobbying to be able to deny offering the coverage.
I can see the argument that the insurance company should be able to do what it wants. That is by far the best argument but it doesn't have much force in the super-regulated health care market. There is absolutely nothing even remotely resembling a free market in health care.
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 1:57pm
#46
Jeff C, PTCO & The Real World
Surely you both must know there are already many Federal & State mandated health benefits that can affect insurance premiums anywhere from 1% to as much as 5%--increase, that is!
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 1:55am
#47
Jeff who stops us from shopping Insurance?
Why can we not shop across State Lines?
If you believe in a Capitalistic system then would it not seem logical that should a system of competitive offers drive cost down?
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 9:20am
#48
Insurance company lobbyists
Insurance company lobbyists make sure all the laws regarding insurance are in place.
You shilled for these guys during the Health Care debate, I'm surprised you don't remember.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 7:45pm
#49
JeffC - What
insurance company forces you to buy their serve? Insurance companies can offer any service they want at any price they want. It's up to the individual to decide if they want to buy insurance, and if so, from what company. You know, free market.
I think you support the "Affordable Health Care Act"? So, I don't think you support people's option to choose. If you support this government mandated regulation, then you support force of government against is citizens. If I am mistaken on this just let me know.
There shouldn't be an opt in or an opt out because the government should be involved at all.
So, that's the argument Jeff. Super-regulated health care markets shouldn't exist. To the extent they exist, we will have higher healthcare costs, more dissatisfied people and less freedom.
Mon, 02/20/2012 - 9:59am
#50
PTCO, So I Guess You Drive
the Malibu around with no insurance? Okay for others to do the same? How does the government mandate come into play here, or not?
I think Will Rogers (with a little help from me) said it best when he said
Asking Iran to disarm is like asking a man in Brooks to give up his collards.”
Mon, 02/20/2012 - 8:04am
#51
PTC_0, the mandate was a
PTC_0, the mandate was a condition made by the insurance companies in exchange for universal coverage.
Mon, 02/20/2012 - 9:46am
#52
Gort - Mandate
I not sure what your point is here Gort, a mandate no matter it's genesis is force.
If the insurance companies had something to do with the mandate then it was in their self-interest. I assume that forcing people to buy insurance could be a pretty good thing for them. It eliminates the idea that they have to compete in a free market driving down costs and improving service. Now I suppose we end up with some sort of oligarchy.
Either way the insurance companies will win, the government will have more control of your health care choices, and you will have no choice on whether or not you want to buy or not buy health insurance.
I am just wondering how much the politicians will get in return from the insurance companies.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 7:58pm
#53
Hey, PTCO
instead of your usual guru speak, let's see some hard cold data to back up your spew! I don't see the Danes or the Germans taking to the streets because of dissatisfaction with their limited healthcare options--do you?! Have you found that 'police' word in the Constitution yet? Me either! BTW, from our pals at Wiki, police departments didn't get fully started until well into the 1800s--imagine that! Why didn't George, Thomas and John see fit to talk about police departments? Hmm, kind a strange don't you think Sir Guru?! I guess they were thinking too much about all those postal roads that needed building!
From Wiki
The first local modern police department established in the United States was the Boston Police Department in 1838, followed by the New York City Police Department in 1845. Early on, police were not respected by the community, as corruption was rampant. In the late 19th and early 20th century, there were few specialized units in police departments.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:52pm
#54
JeffC
No one is denying women contraception. They are free to go to any drug store and purchase it themselves. This is about freedom. Government has no business mandating that insurance companies provide it for "free". Nothing is free, el Jeffa. The insurance companies are going to pass the cost on by increasing premiums, which means that men will be paying for something that they are not eligible for.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 1:29pm
#55
Dem Dems ain't that stupid, guys
Sure, you can stretch contraception into a health issue (condoms vs, AIDS and all that) but the reason they chose this issue now is to provoke the idiotic arguments from the whacky right. It even gets Santorum a rise in the polls. Talk about letting the opposition control the issues and choose the Republican candidate.
If the Dems had chosen sunscreen or nail clippers as the semi-health care issue that insurance companies must pay for, there would be no silly arguments, no outrage from the Catholic Church, no nothing - other that the obvious fact that this is all about control and government dependency.
When government gets us to accept the premise that they can force us to buy something, it is a very short trip to telling us from whom we must buy and how much we must pay. Fortunately all this silliness goes away in less than a year with Romney/Rubio. Or not and we have Prezbo back for a rerun with a Senate and House that will keep him neutered. A second Obama term would almost certainly dump Holder and Clinton and possibly the Homeland Security novice, guaranteeing a Cabinet post for Valerie Jarrett. Wouldn't that be special.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 4:13pm
#56
Who do we buy from?
Based on your first sentence, third paragraph, is it logical that I have a problem with who we buy our weapons from? Our jets? Our sidewinder missiles? Why don't I get a say in that? Why am I forced to pay Boeing for a stealth bomber? Maybe I think we should buy from Lockheed.
I am forced to pay for auto insurance (so that the government doesn't have to foot the bill when I crash into someone, causing them to enter the hospital).
I have to pay taxes to maintain the Lincoln Memorial, the Pentagon, and more. Nobody ever sent me a survey to hear my opinion on it.
I was against the war in Iraq because I knew it was a BS story told to us. You knew it too (all of you), but because your guy was in the Whitehouse you supported it. I didn't, so can I have a refund of a percentage of my taxes?
I didn't support a lot of things, but I paid for them.
Some of you seem to only see things your way, and scoff at the notion that your way isn't always right or perfect.
If you can't criticize your own chosen leaders, then your word means little.
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 5:34pm
#57
YGPM - Tired arguments
These are all very tired arguments. I am not kidding or trying to be cute here Mike, you need to learn a little about why the government was established.
Here's one important question you should seek an answer to: "What ideas about the role of government did our founders try to articulate in the two primary founding documents? Hint: It's in the first one below.
Founding documents defined:
1. The Declaration of Independence
2. The US Constitution
Keep in mind that the Constitution is the law of the land, it's the framework for government, but it's not about the purpose of government.
Now here's another question: Under the Constitution, what power does the President have in declaring war? This is a much harder question but one that deserves an answer not only by you but by all of us.
Hope this helps you work through your public education bias.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 10:51am
#58
Say what PTCO
Keep in mind that the Constitution is the law of the land, it's the framework for government, but it's not about the purpose of government.
Say what? This sounds to me like a fairly explicit statement about the purpose of the government:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
You just don't like that pesky "promote the general Welfare" part.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 9:57pm
#59
Well Jeff - The Preamble
has an interesting history, you should read about it sometime. There was a great debate whether the Preamble was even needed. It was Gouverneur Morris's insistence that a Preamble be included that a committee was formed to frame it. Most likely completely written by Morris and approved by the committee.
The Preamble is a rhetorical flourish but it is not the law. So, I suppose I will grant your "purpose" in the preamble. My point is that it is not the law, it is the Preamble to the law. Unfortunately, those that wanted to expand the meaning of the law and the role of the government, used the Preamble to do so. The Constitution is explicit on what powers are vested in the government by the people, they are not vague, they do not exist in the Preamble.
The States that ratified the Constitution looked to those powers specifically and decided that they weren't explicit enough. These ratification debates gave us our Bill of Rights, please refer to the 10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights.
"...promote the general welfare", is not part of the law but it has been used to expand the scope of government since the Constitution's ratification.
The purpose of our government and its genesis is more aptly expressed in the Declaration of Independence. Written also by committee and primarily by one individual, Thomas Jefferson. Who also wrote the following:
"When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another, and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated …." — Letter to C. Hammond, July 1821
Are we there yet?
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 5:24pm
#60
Great post, PTCO!
Most people, like Jeff, never get past the preamble. Once they see the word "welfare" they either think it's their right to collect welfare, or their responsibility to provide it - with someone else's money of course.
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 9:01am
#61
Are we there yet?
Well PTCO I think ever since Wilson we have arrived.
I am not surprised so many people on both sides of the fence don't know, have never read and do not understand the Constitution. They want to read into it whatever fits their personal views.
They quit teaching it a long time ago.
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 9:19am
#62
Slindsey and PTCO
neither of you ever have or ever will have any impact whatsoever on anything to do with the Constitution! The Supreme Court has decided and will continue to decide what is or is not constitutional! What you think, say, believe, wish for, burp up, spew out, regurgitate, cry about, drool over, scream out, or otherwise do is of NO CONSEQUENCE! Why don't you engage in action that is meaningful for a change, like buying Flo Rida music! Then your life would have at least some significance in terms of boosting his music sales!
I think Flo Rida said it best when he said:
I like'em insane
Don't tell me bout pain
Tell'em this, bottoms up with the champagne
My life come a humming like a hit plane
To be easy, yeah with the insane
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 1:34am
#63
Good stuff PTCO!
I did not know that about Gov. Morris.
Governor Morris's half-brother, Lewis Morris (1726–1798), was a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His grandfather, also named Lewis Morris and also Governor, the first Governor of New Jersey after it was designated a separate state from New York, was the brother of my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandfather (also Lewis Morris, to avoid confusion at the time, my direct ancestor was known as Lewis Morris of Passage Point, his uncle the (later) Gov. was Lewis Morris of Tintern Manor); his father having immigrated to Barbados in rather a hurry after Charles I was beheaded in 1649.
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 6:59pm
#64
JeffC - Gouverneur Morris
Actually it's Gouverneur Morris, this was his first name. He was never a Governor. Besides his role in writing the Constitution's Preamble, he was on the committee to approve its structure and spent many many hours writing and rewriting it for committee review.
His main claim to fame was his role as Minister Plenipotentiary to France during the 1st French Republic. His diaries and diplomatic dispatches became a primary reference source for future historians on the brutality of the French Revolution.
Morristown, NJ is named for Lewis as I am sure you already know.
An excellent book on Gouverneur Morris is “Gentleman Revolutionary: Gouverneur Morris, the Rake Who Wrote the Constitution” by Richard Brookhiser. It’s an excellent overview of one of the long lost contributors to our Constitution and the founding of our country.
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 7:55pm
#65
Thanks again PTCO.
I found
Thanks again PTCO.
I found this online book about him written by Theodore Roosevelt(!) in 1888:
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 8:29pm
#66
JeffC - Thanks I
I never realized that Teddy wrote a book about Morris, I'll download it.
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 10:27pm
#67
So PTCO
So... We both agree that a book by Teddy Roosevelt written in 1888 about a man who lived in 1752 is interesting. This suggest that the political divergence between your extremist individualist's libertarianism and my liberal democratic philosophy occurred after 1888.
Shortly after feels right to me.
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 9:00am
#68
JeffC - I
I am interested in all things historical, even philosophies that have consistently been proven unworkable.
Teddy Roosevelt was the godfather of the progressive movement in the USA and a real favorite of mine in understanding its philosophical foundations in America.
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 9:17am
#69
Gosh PTCO!
You are really making positive progress these days! It seems that you are actually buckling down to study the Constitution in a meaningful way now! Plus, you have begun a coherent dialog with the esteemed JeffC! See, I told you that adjusting the ratios in your pinto bean and collard diet would work! Your existence may turn out to be a net positive for humanity after all! We shall see! Let me know when you find the world 'police' in the sacred document! Adieu!
I think TR said it best when he said:
Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe.
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 7:33pm
#70
Gosh PTCO!
You are using some big and fancy words here! You get a brain transplant over the weekend or are you cutting and pasting again! Watch out, Editor Cal might get on your case, thought he seems to have calmed down since the Presberg issue has subsided!
Malibu running okay?
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 8:31pm
#71
Ninja - why
Why don't you spend some time on Google to see if I have been cutting and pasting. While your doing that you won't be on this board annoying readers.
Good luck and spend plenty to time on this little project.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 10:12pm
#72
PTCO Puts Constitution In The Trash!
PTCO, by saying that government is too big and oppressive, does what it is not supposed to do, causes cancer and collard fungal rot, and other ills, you are implicitly saying that it is an ABJECT FAILURE, id est, the checks and balances function has and does not work!
I think Ben Franklin said it best when he said,
"We must all hang together, or, assuredly, we shall all hang separately."
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 2:12pm
#73
Yes JeffC - it is promote the general..
welfare. However, it's not; "provide" the general Welfare which seems to be the direction the liberal side is taking.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 1:59pm
#74
Jeff,
That 'promote' to which you refer does not mean nor does it infer that government has the obligation nor the authority to excuse a goodly portion of the populace from taking responsibility for themselves. As an example, where is the authority for the state to dictate to insurance companies what it is they must provide free of charge? This whole debate over contraception is like treating a symptom and leaving the disease(increasing scope of government) to fester.
Just an opinion.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 12:16pm
#75
Promote the general welfare---no I certainly don't think the
founding fathers meant what is happening in this country today. We have turned from being a country of people who took pride in providing for ourselves and our own to a country where many take pride in seeing how much they can take from the government. And I do not mean the really needy. And believe me, those are not urban legends regarding those using welfare and other services who do not need them. I am sure each of us know of instances where people who would be considered law abiding citizens who would never think of robbing a bank or taking anything out of your wallet see nothing wrong with taking food stamps, having their utilities bills paid, etc. I know one woman who lives in Fayetteville who gets the latest phone and accompanying gadgets every year, has all the channels on her TV, gets food stamps which she uses to feed people at social functions at her home, her daughter works a full time job, lives with a man who is gainfully employed and yet she too gets food stamps and whatever other benefits she can. The mother collected unemployment for months and months and never bothered to find a job because the govt always extended benefits. Now those benefits have run out and she is complaining because she is having to struggle (her words, not mine). When I ask why she is not looking for a job she says she is having back problems from an old injury for which she had surgery. Now she is trying for disability and complaining because they ask too many questions! Of course she is taking zumba lessons (paid membership at health club), goes boating, dancing, etc. Back only seems to bother her when work is mentioned. And yet if you accused this person of being dishonest she would be offended--she comes from a 'good' family--and I would venture to say she is not the exception.
No, I really don't think this is what the founding fathers had in mind.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 2:10pm
#76
MYTMITE, You Are Right!
We should close down all the Wal-Marts in the world because some people shoplift from them and some store employees walk out the door with stolen stuff stuffed in their socks! It doesn't matter that many others benefit from non-criminal use of Wal-Mart--these palaces of corruption must be shut down and bulldozed flat to the ground to keep those cheating few from getting something for nothing! The Founding Fathers never envisioned having super stores full of low-priced stuff for people to try to steal anyway! Back to the collard patch and goats in the backyard--the only way forward is backward!
I think Newt Gingrich said it best when he said,
"The Reagan failure was to grossly undervalue the centrality of government as the organizing mechanism for reinforcing societal behavior.”
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 4:12pm
#77
Ninja, I think you are overdosing on those collards---too much
of anything can be bad for you. You and DM are correct. There are many people who need the help and I feel anyone deserves a hand up when they are down. The only thing is that we set up programs that give away millions and yet never bother to set up or fund an adequate system to monitor those funds so that they truly go to those needing it. Just think of all the money that could be directed to those in dire need if we had proper checks and balances in place. I also think we need to structure programs that provide decent paying jobs so people can get off the merry-go-round of government assistance. I am sure both of you, in all honesty, would have to admit that there are those who find it easier to let the government take care of them rather than provide for themselves--and this is something that the governement has been instrumental in creating. I have no idea how old you may be Ninja but I know DM is near my age---we were brought up in an age where we took care of each other, be it family or neighbor. Aged parents were taken care of instead of put into a home, unless there were dire circumstances. Whatever you had was stretched to cover those that did not have. Recently I have even read articles where children were complaining because the money they felt was their 'inheritance', such as proceeds from sale of house owned by parent, etc., would go to govt agency taking care of parent instead of the children--unbelievable to me---but they felt justified--felt the govt should pay to see that their parent was housed and fed, medical needs met and they should be entitled to the money the parents had. Maybe I am not explaining this as I should but I am sure you see what I mean. It just bothers me that we seem to have turned into a country where, in many cases, we expect the government to do everything for us---and what happens when the day comes when there are more of 'us' expecting to be taken care of than there are of 'them' footing the bills? And it surely will come.
Believe me, I would love a new car instead of my 18 year old model, all 100 channels instead of basic, an Iphone, Ipad or whatever the latest is rather than a basic cell phone with only enough minutes to cover emergencies and necessities, but I know what I can and cannot afford and still have enough pride to want to know that I am doing evrything I can to remain self-sufficient-then if the day ever comes that I need outside help I will know I have done everything possible to delay that day as long as possible--but that is just me. And yes, I cut and use coupons and every other device I can find to save money, it is the smart thing to do for all of us.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 5:43pm
#78
Mytimite/Ninja
I just don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. Common sense and meaningful monitoring of programs - and hot sauce with my collards!
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 5:53pm
#79
MYTMITE, Diet & Philosophy
First, you must realize that the Ninja is indeed ageless! And in an attempt to prolong his ageless status, I will soon introduce him to Cream Peas (also known as Ladypeas or White Acre peas) to supplement his collard diet. Blackeyes won't be far down the road! And it may surprise you, but I'm betting that more folks follow your philosophy of living within your means than you think--it's just that those who don't are so evident/obvious.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 8:26pm
#80
Peas are probably just what Ninja needs. His diet is much too
restricted. If he keeps eating those collards he will soon become the Green Ninja. I know, Gym, most people do try to do what is right and live as they should--I just hate to see the way our country seems to be headed. It is scary sometimes, yet, our young people have stepped up and offered to serve our country---but, there, again I hate to see them come home, when they do come home, maimed and scarred for life---but am proud of them and their bravery. They make me feel there might be hope for us after all. I just hate to see this great country fall-and it can and will happen if we don't change many things that are not as they should be. Okay, okay, I'm going to go eat some peas--what do you think about carrots??? How do you cook those peas? Making my mouth water just thinking about them. Have a good evening.
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 9:37am
#81
MYTMITE, Peas & Carrots
Don't like carrots--even the baby ones! Cover peas with water & bring to a gboil--reduce heat & simmer for 45 minutes. Or follow directions if you get frozen ones. I go to the Atl Farmer's Mkt every yr and buy a bushel of shelled peas from a Produce company and freeze them for yr-round enjoyment.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 7:02pm
#82
AHG and The Peas of Peace!
AHG, it is good to know that you are up on your American pop music by listening to the Black Eyed Peas! I really like that Fergie--she showed real courage by shaking that meth habit! Now, if you really want to get funky and retro at the same time, you should tune into Flo-Rida! That dude got it going on! He's the Mozart of the present generation!
Check out his latest! He's jumping out of an airplane, over what appears to be Dubai!
I think Brock Yates said it best when he said:
"Some guy once told me that skydiving is like cutting your throat and seeing if you can get to the doctor before you bleed to death."
You ever jump AHG?
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 8:32pm
#83
Yeah, Flo-rida is great---and that Fergie is not bad to look at
either. Can't imagine that jerky husband cheatin' on her--must have a screw loose. I don't know about Gym but the only time I jump is when a door slams or an unexpected gun shot sounds---why would anyone want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane? Bad enough praying that pilot has had a good day--no morning spat with his better half--not too much fiber for breakfast, etc. Don't want to have to wonder about that person who packed that 'chute--and I sure wouldn't want to pack my own--think I'll just stick to old terra firma and hope for the best. Remember--time to switch to peas--you are suffering from collard overload and it can be fatal or at least hurt real bad for awhile.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 8:10pm
#84
Ninja guy and "You ever jump?"
Yeah, when I got my azz blown up by an IED that killed 8 US Servicepeople and put 35 of us in the hospital!
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 10:03pm
#85
AHG and Getting Blown Up!
Most a been a big one! Yeah, I heard those IEDs is bad news. Friend of my mine get hit twice by those things by his account, but he has been known to embellish! Big meaty guy closing in on 300 lbs, but has the neck size to meet with physical regs! Glad you made it through!
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 11:09pm
#86
Ninja & "Jumping"
I still do at unexpected loud noises. Hey, it was an occupational hazard.
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 11:24pm
#87
AHG The Jumping Bean!
Well, I was originally referring to the kind of jumping they teach down at Benning, but I guess you was infantry all the way! Boom!
Sleep well!
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 9:14am
#88
Ninja & Jumping
Yeah, I knew that but the kind of planes I flew in for 15 months weren't designed for jumping--in fact we didn't even cary chutes. In order to get out, you'd have to invert, pop the canopy and drop out. It was safer to ride it down. Leave a perfectly good plane with engines turning? Not me!
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 4:33pm
#89
MYTMITE, You Are Right Again!
If you find one bad collard leaf in the bunch, then you should just throw the whole bunch out! Or, you can hire an army of government collard inspectors to make sure EVERY leaf in EVERY bunch of collards grown, sold, and cooked is fine and dandy! Then, we can all eat collards and be happy knowing that there are absolutely zero bad leaves in any bunch of collards anywhere on the whole planet! Otherwise, we should just just use a fleet of C130s to spray Round-Up on all the collard patches everywhere and be done with collards for good! You are right!
I think Foxy Brown said it best when she said,
All my friends were in the park smoking weed and getting pregnant. I didn't want to be the young black girl having a baby, a baby's father, being on welfare. That wasn't going to be my story.
BTW, do you every listen to Flo-Rida? You should check him out. He is the Mozart of our time!
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 12:38pm
#90
Mytimite
There is no defense for the lady that you describe. My concern is providing the government run monitoring so that the corrupt use of the safety nets provided for those in need are not taken from those truly in need. In this economy, I see more young and not so young women using coupons, shopping from carefully made out lists in order to try to maintain a life style that has been interrupted due to unemployment or under employment. (and they are also using that pesky government card - food stamps) For some this has been a temporary solution to unemployment - for too many for the past 3 or 4 years, this has not been a temporary situation. I see more of the women I describe than the one you have described. No doubt there are too many of the ones you have mentioned - but I think there are more of the others who are not taking advantage - just trying to stay above water until times get better.
This is not about contraception and is NOT about Healthcare.
It is about Separation of Church and State. Now I know this is near and dear to your heart and you would be on the front lines marching to get a prayer torn off a wall if it was in a school or Public building.
So why is it now you approve of the Government interfering in a Religion as a matter of conscious?
We are not talking about life saving meds here. The morning after pill or birth control pills are not needed to save a life. So what is really the issue?
No one is being denied anything. Period...
If you are Catholic and want to use the pill... you may do so. Just don't ask your Catholic employer to provide it and the Government should not be able to force them to do so.
"Whoever claims the right to redistribute the wealth produced by others is claiming the right to treat human beings as chattel."
-Ayn Rand