Brown opposes Fairburn’s plan for Hwy. 74-I-85 interchange fixes

One of the biggest choke points for commuters in western Fayette County is the interchange where Ga. Highway 74 meets Interstate 85 in Fairburn a short distance across the county line.

The problem is to a degree that several governments in Fulton and Fayette counties have joined forces to work on it. The result is an engineering report commissioned by the city of Fairburn that recommends several options, including the extension of on and off-ramps for the interstate along with cloverleaf designs that will allow traffic exiting the southbound lanes of I-85 to be able to “flow freely” onto Hwy. 74 South.

Another proposed cloverleaf would allow traffic going on Hwy. 74 South from Fairburn to have a free flow access onto I-85 northbound, which figures to be a win for the traffic from the city’s CSX rail facility.

Fayette County Commissioner Steve Brown told his fellow commissioners last week that he is not pleased with the study’s recommendations, which he thinks favor Fairburn heavily at the cost of Fayette commuters.

“There’s nothing in this for us as far as I can see,” Brown said, alleging that Fairburn is primed to add more growth in the area including a 900,000-square-foot shopping center “as soon as the economy comes back.”

Several other commissioners differed from Brown’s assessment, however.

Commissioner Lee Hearn noted that the cloverleaf exit ramp from I-85 southbound would allow traffic to head toward Tyrone and Peachtree CIty without having to stop. The second cloverleaf will keep a good chunk of Hwy. 74 southbound traffic from having to turn left to access I-85 northbound, it was noted.

“There is something in here for Fayette County commuters,” Hearn said.

Commission Chairman Herb Frady noted that he has personally experienced the backups in the area of the expressway.

“I think it means a lot to Fayette County residents to be able to get improvements up there,” Frady said.

Brown said he wanted to be involved in future meetings on the interchange with other jurisdictions.

It has been discussed that this project could potentially be funded with money from a 10-year regional transportation sales tax, but that decision won’t be made until early this summer, and it will be contingent on whether the sales tax is approved by a majority of voters in the metro Atlanta area.

GAltant
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NUK_1 - Haddix is just not worth it

Don't get upset with what Haddix says...he speaks to you and the rest of the bloggers who disagree with him the same way he deals with city council members, the recently departed city manager and many inside city hall.

What you need to know is that in the next election HADDIX HAS TO GO!

Most people who attend the city council meetings, 3 council members and those who observe him know that he creates his own facts, tries to bully people which doesn't work because he's just not that smart.

RELAX...THIS GUY WON'T MAKE A SECOND TERM...the issue is how much damage will be cause between now and then. Luckily, he is on the minority side of most votes on council...Let's hope the 3 smart ones on council will keep him under lock and key! Right now the only damage is our reputation for having him as a mayor.

NUK_1
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GAlant: Agree

I have to draw the line though when he comes on using this forum to make statements and claims that need to be backed up or shut up. He used this forum well to get elected both times and sometimes he needs to be challenged on his stuff.

Haddix is going very quickly into the Steve Brown zone of populist demagogue which gets you elected once or twice, and beat down hard after people wake up. Of course, they go back to sleep a few years later and elect you to another position, but it is what it is.

pips1414
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Rampant development could occur on Hwy. 92 and the West Bypass

There has been talk recently of a double diamond interchange designed with a common access road to afford S.R.'s 92 and 74 direct access to I-85 in one fell swoop. Whether or not that goes through is up to Fulton County, the state, and D.O.T. But if it does, S.R. 92 is the next road to be four-laned, spawning even more reasons for travelers to exit I-85 and ruin our rural setting. With more cars comes more fast food places convenience stores, and rampant development. Looking at the Atlanta Regional Commission map of problem traffic patterns as a dog, Fayette County traffic is little more than a flea. And looking at the whole Atlanta area, all new access roads to Interstate highways have created more traffic through the ensuing new development than they were designed to relieve. If I were a developer or enjoy explosive growth, I would be highly in favor of it for obvious reasons.

I personally hope that the minimum allowable distances between Interstate exits, analysis of the ensuing traffic, and good common sense makes that impossible. Once we start running access roads combining traffic from two state highways, we'll have a nightmarish situation, and be forever joined at the hip to South Fulton County. That should never be done until all the possibilities of modifying the existing Hwy. 74 exit have been thoroughly studied and exhausted.

birdman
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pips and jackyldo you both

make good comments. But pips, I sense your idea is that since any improvement will automatically lead to development, we should never improve our roads. I don't think so. First, development will likely occur whether or not there is easy access to the freeways. Simply witness the truck parks. Whoever allowed that design to happen should be shot. As for the mall projected for 74, this will also most likely occur. Whether we like it or not business will continue to grow in a desirable area. I know that Brown has everyone worked up over the WFB and how if it is built then in about 6 months the "developers" will have 6 million new homes built. But reality is that if the landowners don't sell the property, no new homes will be built. But if the WFB relieves traffic snarls through Fayetteville, then maybe it isn't such a bad idea. I don't know either way. But growth will occur because Fayette county is a desirable place to live. Improving or not Improving the freeway access will have little affect on growth, only on traffic flow and our quality of life. Did you look at this problem and say, "gee, I won't live in PTC or Fayetteville because I may hit a traffic jam on the way to and from work?" Considering the alternatives, it is still the fastest commute in the Greater Atlanta Area.
But the truth to this whole discussion is that Brown, as he states, wants to be placed on the committee. He will be incredibly detrimental to our issues since he will simply act as he does as a commissioner, in a totally contentious manner, angering all other members. Brown wants to be in charge. Brown wants HIS ideas and only HIS ideas to be law. Brown thinks NO ONE else has any ability, sense, knowledge, etc. Brown verbally and in public writings attacks ANYONE who bucks him. If he doesn't get his way on a committee he will publicly attack those who voted against us. When working with other counties, that is not a good way to have our concerns addressed. In fact he already expressed a contentious comment when he stated that the plans " favor Fairburn heavily at the cost of Fayette commuters." Anyone really think that Fairburn or Fulton County administrators really give a hoot how their plan for their money affects Fayette County? Anyone think that any Fairburn or Fulton County administrator who read that comment slapped his head and said "gee, he's right, what were we thinking? The heck with OUR citizens, we need to spend OUR money to favor Fayette commuters. Let's get Commissioner Brown on the phone and he can fax us his ideas and we'll build them immediately!"
If we want Fayette County traffic concerns addressed at the 74/I-85 interchange, then we need someone representing us who will actually work with the other communities, not demand that his, and only his, ideas be implemented.

jackyldo
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2 problems here are OBVIOUS.

Morning traffic backs up to the Vespa Store. or further.
Northbound traffic is competing with the Industrial traffic coming in from Oakley Industrial a majority of which are heavily loaded trucks ..
and the Traffic from CSX Rail yard which again are heavily laden slow moving trucks.
Part of that issue can be addressed by providing a Northbound ramp onto 85 North at Spence road or even better at Fayetteville road(92).

Using 74North to I85 multiple times per day this "choke point" exsists from 7 a.m. to 8:30 a.m 5 days a week.

Southbound and evening rush often backs up more than 1 mile ON I85S and recently was backing up at 1.25 and 1.5 miles. 8 of 10 vehicles are going South on 74 the other 2 in 10 are going toward Fairburn and the CSX yards, often ocean and rail containers that are now empty.

Making a cloverleaf after 74 bring traffic back onto the West side of the bridge. Where it still has to navigate a traffic light at the South end of the Bridge and another at Oakley Industrial.

The key factor here has to be the REDESIGN AND WIDENING of the Bridge along with the movement of traffic through those 2 traffic lights. If you spend to make the cloverleaf and don't address the Bridge and traffic flow at 74S you'll still have the back up on I85.

Building flyovers is a nice dream and a very expensive one for a problem that exists perhaps 2 hours per day in each direction.

Don Haddix
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Haddix: Correct

The average is $264,000. The median is $233,200. The million dollar homes skew both, so which do you go by?

Which homes are fairing the worst on the market? The $500,000 and up.

Many "experts," including builders associations, say the day of the mini mansions is over.

$264,000 is in a range where I have seen a Property Tax bill, so it is right at $3,500 a year.

To make it cheaper requires keeping and bringing more money here, meaning jobs.

With fuel costs on top of not wanting to commute, commuting isn't an answer.

Transit isn't the answer either as it is the most expensive form of transportation out there. Even GDOT Commission has talked about its cost.

Mike King
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Haddix

"Many "experts," including builders associations, say the day of the mini mansions is over."
Would it be that these experts are you and Doug? Have you lost track that 'boomers' are retiring in record numbers, and are purchasing retirement homes? You have become dilusional. Just because they are not buying in PTC, and have decided against living in Town Square doesn't mean they are out of the market.

To make it cheaper will require smaller and much more efficient government because in your city the odds of more industrial growth is minimal at best. Name one business that has chosen Peachtree City on your watch (Sany was on Logsdon's). Growing or not reducing your government is a drain on the revenue currently available, but you still refuse to see it.

Could it be that ending all commuting is your answer? Then, pray tell, who will pay your taxes? Retirees only?

GAltant
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Incorrect Haddix

Again....here the mayor is quoting CRAP again.
You quote the day of the mini masions are over...meanwhile if you look at the recent sales in PTC its either million dollar homes (because people are not qualifying for mortgages and the people who buy million dollar homes are paying cash or qualifying for loans with 50%+ down)
or people are buying foreclosed properties under $100,000 for all cash.

That's whats really selling in this town...ask any QUALIFIED real estate who can give you the sales sheets!

Mr Mayor - I have a suggestion for you...Stop answering all the posts on this blog trying to prove you are right...we all know that your personality defect is that you always have to be right and quote BS stats to support your silly points....Go to work and accomplish something meaningful for Peachtree City because so far your record SUCKS

GAltant
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Haddix lives in a fictional world-Robert Morgan

Mr Morgan,
I am so glad youi caught Haddix in this BS lie/statistic.
For those who attend council meetings that's what Haddix does all the time...and for some reason Sturbaum supports him and comes with his own BS statistics too.

The other city council members are sick and tired of Haddix's bull and they keep trying to hold him accountable to it.

This guy has got to go! It's embarrassing! Its said that Peachtree City has not woken up to this!!!!!

Doug
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No surprise there

Birdman thinks clover leafs are the way to go. Most states and the federal government are doing away with clover leafs because they cause huge problems when the number of cars increase.

Birdman's exaggerations are so bad he's impossible to take seriously. I don't think anyone really believes Steve Brown wants to be king of Fayette County or he wants to destroy anything.

birdman
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Brown's agenda and other things

Well, at least Brown's agenda is finally popping up. He wants to not only be Chairman of the Commission, but King of Fayette County. He is going to attack those who oppose him in every way possible. His opposition to clover-leafing off ramps is the perfect example. He wants to make all decisions. The article even states "Brown said he wanted to be involved in future meetings on the interchange with other jurisdictions." Well, that's how he governed Peachtree City. Driving every committee and every decision. Funny, he hates the ideas, blames Fairburn, but puts forth no idea of his own. Additionally, he states " Fayette County Commissioner Steve Brown told his fellow commissioners last week that he is not pleased with the study’s recommendations, which he thinks favor Fairburn heavily at the cost of Fayette commuters." How so? Umm is it just me, or isn't this interchange actually NOT in Fayette County? Will blaming Fairburn actually get them to work WITH Fayette County? I doubt it. The most irresponsible thing this Commission can do is to let Brown attend meetings with other communities. The most irresponsible thing Brown can do is to keep bad mouthing our surrounding neighbors.
But here is a suggestion. Clover-leafing, if done right would make the on ramps and off ramps much more efficient. It should eliminate at least one stop light and keep traffic flowing. And if Brown really wanted to help, he could put forth an idea to build on ramps at the 92 overpass just north of 74. This would facilitate the truck parks and happens to be where the WFB is slated to end. If an on/off ramp was built, it would allow Fayette residents an access to I-85. It would also justify the WFB. I know, not something anyone wants. But it'll be built anyway, may as well have it do something.
Just a thought.

roundabout
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It seems Mr. Brown....

.........is the only one who knows nothing about roads!!!
All of his criticizers however are experts!

I'll write up my opinion about roads as soon as I get qualified.
Don't we pay people to design roads?

birdman
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Roundabout, no one said

that they were experts at anything. No one except Steve. He fancies himself an expert at everything but is really an expert at nothing. That is the whole problem. The experts will come up with the best solution, as they are already suggesting, only to have him oppose it.
Don't need his leadership, or his representation to any committee. Watch what happens.

roundabout
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birdman

You are wrong! Lots of people here have said Brown is wrong about roads and if they weren't experts how would they know that?

Everybody here has an opinion on roundabouts, bridges, EBP, etc.

All they want is not to spend any Splost money, or to give it to them, I suppose. Vote down the splost if you don't want the money.

I think the problem is not Brown's intelligence, but Brown and his gang busting!

birdman
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Roundabout, I'm not wrong

Brown fancied himself an expert on everything while Mayor. His opposition to clover-leafs is more about opposing Hearn, etal than actual knowledge. I admit that I not a traffic expert, but it doesn't take an expert to know that what we have is inefficient. Certainly clover-leafs deserve some study. But also on ramps at 92 would go a long way in relieving traffic at 74, especially if the WFB creates access to Fayetteville. But for Brown to automatically oppose it simply to oppose the other Commissioners is simply stupid. And for him, the newest Commissioner, to demand that HE be placed on the committee is just plain egotistical. Brown's record as Mayor was to simply tick off every surrounding governing body because he insists on getting his own way or else. He would anger Fairburn and Fulton county to the point where they would make decisions with NO regard to our concerns.
I would simply suggest we let Brown have his way to prove my point, but I drive I-85 and can't afford the results.
If you'd like some examples from when he was Mayor, let me know.

jmatute
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Traffic Flow 74/Interstate 85

Improving the traffic flow on and off the interstate at the intersection of highway 74 is only part of the problem. The real problem is the zig-sag of the truck traffic in both directions where 74 intersects with Oakley Industrial. That intersection was never made to handle the volume and size of trucks that appear there now. So what did Fairburn do in its economic development wisdom?, they approved the construction of two new distribution depots with docking facilities for over 100 simultaneous trucking operations, in addition to the large WALMART depot that was already there. This was also done with no oversight, apparently with the Georgia DOT or any other government agency - just a business motion at a city council meeting. As far as I can tell, this intersection will remain as a memorial to very poor urban planning, and the destroyed corner by Wendy's will be there as a living memorial. What is being attempted now as a fix, is nothing more than too little, too late.

Robert W. Morgan
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Actually it was a very good plan at 74/I-85

The idea proposed during the plan approval process was that a dedicated traffic lane be built so that trucks could exit Oakley directly onto I-85 north without mixing with the other traffic or being stopped by stop lights.

Didn't happen. Fault? Fairburn? Fulton Co? DOT?

Let the finger pointing begin.

And of course the solution for PTC commuters is to go through Tyrone and get on 85 at Palmetto - adds 5 miles but saves 10 minutes during AM rush hour. Especially while construction is going on at 74/85.

Spyglass
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The Mayor has spoken...

And it's unbelievable. sigh....

PTC Observer
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I didn't realize

that among Mr. Brown's many talents and training was the insight into traffic flow and road engineering.

Mike King
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None of these elected officials have a clue.

A 900,000 square foot center just one exit down from an existing(?)center that is all but closed, just what are those folks in Fairburn thinking? The Hwy 74/I-85 intersection would be much worse than it currently is.

Would they consider upgrading the Hwy 138/I-85 intersection with connections to Fayetteville/Peachtree City since Shannon Mall is pretty much history? The solution is not just one intersection but actually three (Exits 64, 61, & 57).

My condolences to the landowners that will ultimately be affected.

roundabout
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MIKE

Union City did ruin the shopping center that is practically gone by allowing the quality of nearly everything there to deteriorate, plus it was no longer needed by such places as PTC and others south. I site Cracker Barrel as an example of quality problems allowed to occur.
Road 138 leads to nowhere for miles!

Also, it got no new industry or decent housing since mall was built.

However Fairburn has added many attractions around new train and truck facilities. Even nice Motels. It also is directly on the way home to PTC.
They sure are going to do better than "The Avenue." That is going to turn out the same way as the downtown "mall" did in Fayetteville, taken over by the County.

hutch866
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rounda$nout
roundabout wrote:

They sure are going to do better than "The Avenue." That is going to turn out the same way as the downtown "mall" did in Fayetteville, taken over by the County.

The county took over the Pavilion? Sure about that?

phil sukalewski
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I think he is referring to

I think he is referring to the shopping center on the southeast corner of hwy 54 & 85, which is now the government services center (DMV, voter registration, building inspector, etc.).

roundabout
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Now Hutch

Keep thinking.....what about where taxes are paid, Health Department, etc...?

Speaking of Pavilion-----Soon will be similar to Southlake Mall!

Malls are old fashioned-----new ones will be small towns with the housing built around and on top of them!

If Fayetteville doesn't soon tear down the square and rebuilt with modern stores with parking buildings (don't need the old frame buildings and Courthouse---no progress there) then it will just be a crossroad with no one stopping.

hutch866
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But rounda$nout

You said the county took over the pavilion, appears to be just more of your made up BS, of course we expect nothing more from you.

roundabout
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hutch

Did not use the word "Pavilion" I said "downtown," Old Courthouse--got it?

Your one sentence corrections and snipes are useless!

The Pavilion will go the way of Southlake and the one at Union City, however.

hutch866
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rounda$snout

Well this is even better, so now you're saying the county took over downtown Fayetteville, would you have any evidence of that? At least I don't have to resort to lies and made up facts like you do. Of course, you can prove me wrong and show me where the county took over downtown Fayetteville.

roundabout
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hutch

Did you read Phil Sewkelewski on this thread? He told you exactly where the shopping center was, where now are county offices---and of course the old courthouse also!
Phew, I give up! You won't listen or admit anything.

AtHomeGym
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Hutch & The County "takeover"

Hutch, it's the County Administrative Complex and they bought it specifically for that purpose. It never did take off as a commercial wentity.
a

roundabout
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GYM

You try to make it sound as if it never was a shopping complex and the county built it--never happened.

Parsing clean-cut words is a habit on here!

AtHomeGym
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Parsing of words

kinda like "taken over" huh?
It was a straight out purchase of property, NOT a "take over" and I NEVER inferred that the county "built" it--YOU manufactured that out of nowhere!

roundabout
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hutch

You need to listen to me more!

I said early today that the Egyptian Military would soon be in charge of Egypt as that was the only thing Egyptians understood or would have.

Well, I just saw where they already are in charge---the appointed VP is out, he made the announcement.

There will NEVER be free and open democratic elections ever!

Another figurehead like Mubarak may sometime be appointed President out of the Military as was Mubarak 30 years ago.

My comment on this went into a "CUE" of some sort, so you may never see it!

Spyglass
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Where is Brown's proposal? What about a comment from Haddix?

This affects PTC a lot.

I've tried to engage him on topics just like this one. It's easy to just sit and say "this does no good". Traffic is a big issue.

From first glance, this would seem to be an improvement. Throw in some possible on Northbound on Southbound off ramps on Interstate 85 at Hwy 92, and we may have a solution to much of our problems.

I ask of the Citizen, is a layout of the proposals available online anywhere?

It seems Brown is more content to argue about roads that have already been built.

Don Haddix
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Haddix: I-85

I have not seen the actual plans yet.

On history the Tri County Alliance working on that intersection is nothing new. It was key to getting the last improvements done by GDOT.

In 2008 we tried to get more improvements but GDOT said no more. The intersection was now too low a priority and the improvements they were willing to do were complete.

As for the plans now GDOT has no option but to evaluate them as part of TSPLOST projects. But the rating they will give it is going to be low.

Will it make the Unconstrained List? Yes, because it was submitted.

Will it be funded? Only if the RTR gives a political bone to Steele and Frady, which I cannot picture happening.

Will it really help that much? There I am not sure. But I can tell you that the theory there will be continuous traffic flow during rush hour is a false claim.

Look at the proximity of the other traffic lights. They stop traffic, the traffic backs up blocking the ramps and then how do you get off the ramps?

As well Steve is right about the Shopping Center and other commercial development planned for that immediate area. Millions more sq' are planned. That means more lights. What is increased semi traffic alone going to do to traffic flow?

Fairburn will benefit from it. Not a doubt in the world. But will Fayette? I doubt it when considering the commercial and other development in the area.

As I said before and will repeat, the answer is getting jobs here. Fayette is pretty flat in residential growth and home sales because people just do not want to commute anymore. It began when the economy was still doing fairly well.

Before arguing that isn't going to happen consider what will happen if it does not? With people no longer wanting to commute, a national, not a local reality only, just building roads is not an answer.

Especially not an answer for an area populated by people who are here to escape Urban living.

As for 92 helping, it won't. It will be just another development corridor.

Spyglass
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Don, have you seen a better plan?

I have not. I agree about proximity to traffic lights and non stop flow, but from what I read above, it would still be tons better than it is now.

We need to work for improvement of this intersection, no doubt about it. How do you think we could best go about it?

Don Haddix
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Haddix: Better Plan

Would it be better or just change the nature of the problems at greater cost?

Can this intersection ever be improved in any meaningful and significant way to actually help? Or is the "bucket full" with no room left to add more?

So before just saying something is better than nothing you have to answer the question is there actually something else at all?

Kind of like saying if one buys a car instead of a truck it will somehow make traffic better. It won't. They are both vehicles, different, but still vehicles.

Yes, I have a better plan. Change the dynamics that is generating the problems at the intersection.

Beginning with the assumption that so many people must work in Clayton, Fulton and Atlanta is the problem. Especially when people are more and more saying they will not live more than X miles from where they work.

Even if the intersection were improved somewhat Fairburn's plans are going to consume the improvements and overall it will get worse than now. Delaying the decay is not eliminating the decay.

Again, the odds of funding it via TSPLOST are thin at best.

I am the last to say we do not have problems. But I am saying we need to take meaningful actions that may be other than spending large sums of money on more roads.

Jobs here mean commuting and rush hour problems decrease there for those who still commute by taking cars off the road, not adding more asphalt.

Sink the $15 or more million of TSPLOST dollars each year locally to get the jobs here. That translates to more Sales Tax money, better home values, quality of life, etc here. It also means lower Property Taxes.

suggarfoot
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There you have it folks

2 good, knowledgeable people, Mayor Haddox and Steve Brown have told you what the expansion will do, and won't do.

Mr H is right, and we know it.

Mr H has told you the likely hood of any money being put into that intersection any time soon...very little.

And if and when they do, Steve AND Mr H, have told you the extra traffic lights for the extra building along there will offset any improvements made on the intersection.

How bout we do something simple. How bout till Fairburn and Fulton come up with something more than blue print drawings and doodles, we stop building the West bypass?

Why don't we ..SAVE.. our money and finish the EAST bypass first?

Maybe in a couple of years when we have finished the East, and Fairburn and Fulton have something more than drawings, we can reconsider the West bypass, provided that at that time, there is a legitimate exit for more traffic onto I85.

To do otherwise, is going to simply wall in Tyrone and Peachtree city as far as traffic.

The only people who are going to be happy with the West bypass now are smiley faced developers.

There is much wisdom in what Mr Haddox is saying about commuters drying up. We need people like Mr H and Steve to try to come up with pulling something into this area of quality to provide jobs, and no commute.

Don't kid yourselves. I'm sure there are many companies that would LOVE to relocate here instead of crime ridden downtown.

Fayette county is coming into its own. We have a movie group in Senioa, 74 south is lined with corporations, we have a great place to live. What the hell do we need with more roads to Atlanta?

NUK_1
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You'll be waiting a while, sugar

Not so sure about the predictions of Haddix considering how wrong he's been on such like PTC not shopping at Wally, Home Depot or Sam's Club. The present council of PTC de-funded the Development Authority in favor of hiring an economic development person on a one year contract.

As far as Brown goes, he was extremely anti-business while Mayor of PTC and alienated the entire business community in all of FC, hence his landslide losses to Logsdon and Ramsey. About the only thing I remember Brown being "for" is "more senior citizens," and TDK for a while. Everything else(and then TDK), he was simply "no." Well, except district voting I guess.

"Don't kid yourselves. I'm sure there are many companies that would LOVE to relocate here instead of crime ridden downtown."

Really? Why are they continuing to locate in Atlanta and areas surrounding Atlanta then and not FC? I see plenty of vacancies in FC for companies(industrial park PTC... tons of space) and no one eager to rush in. Contrary to the FC thinking, a lot of companies DO like being around MASS TRANSIT systems like trains and buses. They also like to locate where other companies already are because that might be their customer base.

"Fayette county is coming into its own. We have a movie group in Senioa,"

Senoia is Coweta, not Fayette. They are also serviced by Coweta sewer because the "leadership" in PTC was too stupid and short-sighted to allow WASA to provide it instead, and now PTC residents get pay through the nose every month as punishment for listening to leaders like Haddix and Brown.

I'm afraid you'll be waiting a VERY long time if you are looking for ideas from leaders whose philosophy is being against about everything and "for" very little.

I don't see any need for WFB, but I also see no need for an EFB either.

hutch866
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Now this is funny

When ol' Don was the rep to the transportation thingy, he had plans for this intersection, but now that he's been removed, suddenly its impossible to improve this area. Who knew?

Don Haddix
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Haddix: hutch

If TSPLOST dollars are going to be spent and we are going to be paying then we go for what we can get, marginal or not.

But if we have a choice of paying or not paying, then local investment in jobs is superior.

I made it very clear I opposed and still do the TSPLOST. Leaving ARC for 3 Rivers was the right move. If you pay attention to what is coming out of Atlanta what I warned about is moving forward.

Make of that what you will.

bad_ptc
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Mayor Haddix, had you paid attention

as to what was going into and out of Atlanta on a daily basis you would have known that the income levels required to maintain the status quo in PTC was and is NOT achievable with current and/or future employment in the local area.

Show me please where the jobs are in Fayette that pay $100,000+! There aren't any.

The average price of a home in PTC is now in excess of $250,000. Just how many jobs will the industrial area generate that can afford a mortgage at that level? NONE!

Exactly what have you instructed the Dev. Auth. to do in order to attract 'office workers' to come here? I say office workers because industrial jobs are all but dead and mom and pop retail won't generate the employment numbers needed.

You know it and anyone with half a brain knows that the money needed to keep PTC operating without massive tax increases or massive decreases in services is going to have to come from those of us that commute to and from Atlanta each and every day.

Get off your butt and do the research for yourself. Get the Development Authority to find out just how many employees in the industrial area actually live in PTC. I'll venture a guess and say it's less than 20%. Now prove me wrong.

While you’re at it find out what the gross pay is for those that do work in the industrial area and live in PTC. No it's not a violation of privacy.

You'll find that the bulk of the taxes paid to PTC come from people that are employed at the airport or downtown Atlanta. I forgot, you don't think the folks that work at the airport actually commute and therefore they don't count.

The days of keeping PTC in a cow pasture are over. The people paying for PTC DON'T work here or in Coweta or in Clayton; they work in Fulton.

The biggest problem with getting large well paying companies to locate here is the lack of interstate access.

So now that we've debunked you’re "lets get jobs here" as wishful thinking, try and improve the commute between PTC and Atlanta, where the money is. (light rail and or Commuter bus service comes to mind)

The data is readily available at your level so get to it.

I'll give you a month to report back to the citizens with the results of your analysis.

After that, you'll be fare game to be replaced by Councilwoman Leanrard as the next Mayor of PTC.

I would imagen a legasy as SB #2, or a little less, would be hard to live with. Ask Doug, he should already know.

Don Haddix
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Haddix: $100,000.00

In posting links it seems the spam filter triggered. So, I am on an alternate computer until my main computer is allowed back on.

You want rail in PTC, thus your comments. But again you are incorrect.

The average home in PTC is $264,000.00. At the current interest level on a 30 year mortgage the income requirement is $68,666.00, not $100,000.00. The more one puts down up front the lower the numbers go.

http: //mortgages.interest .com/content/calculators/earn-home.asp
Delete the spaces.

The more jobs here the more money for the city here, not Atlanta.

And yes, we do have salaries of that level here and can get more here.

You need to rethink your claims. Plus we like our cow pastures. If we didn't we would live in Atlanta.

I had your answers the day you posted. Just could not get on to post them.

bad_ptc
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Mr. Mayor: This is what $70,000/yr gets you in PTC

Yearly income of $70,000
Two adults, 2 children.

Fed. and State Taxes:
For this example we’ll use 25% for Federal and State taxes.
25% of $70,000 is $17,500
Disposable income is $52,500.

Children:
$221,000 to Raise a Child?
http: //parenting.blogs.nytimes. com/2009/08/05/221000-to-raise-a-child/
(remove the two spaces)
That’s 13,000/child/yr.
2 children at 13,000/yr = $26,000
$52,500 - $26,000 = $26,000.
Disposable income is $26,000

Food:
Let’s use a conservative estimate of $150.00/wk
$600.00/mth or $7,000.00/yr.
$26,000 - $7,000 = $19,000
Disposable income is $19,000

Automotive costs: (1 car)
Car pymt./Gas/Insurance/maint. = $400.00/mth.
$19,000 - $4,800 = $14,200
Disposable income is $14,200

Home: ($260,000 avg in PTC)
Mtg./tax/insur. = $2,000/mth.
14,200 - $24,000 = -$9,800
Disposable income is -$9,800

Utilities:
Water/gas/electric = $200.00/mth.
-$9,800 - $2,400 = -$12,200

Revolving debt: (Cloths/shoes/hair-cuts/shopping at the Avenue/X-Mass/birthdays/school projects)
$100.00/mth = $1,200.00/yr
-$12,200 - $1,200 = -$13,400
Disposable income is now -$13,400

I’m may have left out a few other expenses. (note to all, check my math)

New bubble for a pool, $250,000.00
Renovation of the Gathering Place, $850,000.00
Proposed budget for the Dev. Auth., $150,000.00
Crosstown/PT Pky. Improvements, $1,200,000.00

Any questions Mr. Mayor?

roundabout
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bad

There are some people in PTC living on a gross of $70,000. Both have to work to have that much.

No one pays $17,500 taxes on that salary. Including Social Security it would be about 15-17% net, on the average.

Sorry, two kids won't get $26,000 of $70,000! You already fed them.

Everyone don't owe what their house is worth, especially the 70K people.

You are low on utilities. Where is TV and Phone?

Robert W. Morgan
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Minus $13,400 meaning -$13,400 every year?

How can you do that?
Do you have a big savings account?

roundabout
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Morgan

I think that is precisely what he said! Spending more than earned! Using his figures.

bad_ptc
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You guessed it Dead Guy

I just can't afford to work and live in PTC.

I would love a job in the industrial area that paid $70,000+/yr.

Maybe I should live in Newnan, work in Atlanta and just drive thru PTC.

Newnan has a commuter bus service to downtown Atlanta.

GAltant
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Haddix-not everyone agrees!

Not everyone agrees with your opinion...Looks like people want action on improving the commute to Atlanta and the airport....

I guess you think crime will increase if we improve the 85 exit or have Marta near the 85 exit.

Oh well...PTC is already heading in the direction of becoming a retirement community, I guess since you are retired you want to keep it that way...totally disconnected from Atlanta and all those crimminals.

Mike King
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Mayor

First off, where's the cow pasture within the city limits? Perhaps that is the source for all your bovine excrement.

Would you care to comment on the disposable income a family making $68,666 annually with a $264,000 mortgage? Remember that they're paying between $3500-$4500 annually for property taxes. Water bills have just doubled as a result of your keen foresight, not to mention gas and heat isn't free. Oh, they'll need a family car, but perhaps not a fancy red one. Oh, and those pesky schools keep asking for money to make sure junior keeps up. I almost forgot, we need to eat, and I'm not refering to supporting our local restaurants.

Wake up Mayor! Your info is not relevant to Peachtree City, but you already knew that.

roundabout
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"Average"

Did you know that one can drown in water that "averages," 1/2 inch deep?

Wouldn't it depend upon how many 500,000 dollars houses and how many 100,000 dollar houses there are? Isn't that "weighted average?"

One could use the "median" numbers also, but that is math and math is a foreign subject anymore.

hutch866
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Well Don

The fact is I don't have to make anything of it, I just like to point out the inconsistencies of your various positions.

roundabout
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hutch

Maybe instead of using average costs or median costs, we should use a bell curve to get what kind of houses we have in PTC?
That would tell us how many $50,000 ones we have, how many 50-100 we have, how many 100-200 we have and how many 200-300 we have, and how many 300-500 we have, and how many over 500,000!
The steeper the curve on the bell, the worse the "balance" is by affordable considerations! Socialism ranks somewhere about a "flat bell!

I'll bet you don't care!

hutch866
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rounda$nout

You're right for once, I don't care how much houses cost in PTC, I live in Fayetteville, I just think it's funny how when Don was the Rep to the RTB, there were solutions to everything, but since he was kicked to the curb, suddenly nothing is workable.

roundabout
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Forum Section on here

How many of you participate regularly in the forum section?

I've noticed that when we do that is the only place a comment appears unless someone comments on it right away.

If someone does participate later and answers a comment, then it still stays in the forum, never appearing in the comments section.

It becomes way out of date and unread.

Spyglass
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So, let me see if I get your plan..

Your plan for the intersection is non-existent. You say ramps at 92 won't help. Just dismissing any and everything is not going to get anything done up 74. PTC is a Suburb in Metro Atlanta. Atlanta drives the machine in this area. Folks need to be able to get back/forth without unnecessary delays.

Your plan is to bring Jobs to Peachtree City. I'm all for it. Sounds good, sing it loud. That sounds find and dandy, if that's what we were discussing.

Don Haddix
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Haddix: Alternatives

92 is not going to help PTC. 74/I-85 is pretty much maxed out. Fairburn is going to keep drowning the area in new commercial growth, making it all worse.

Atlanta driving the engine does not mean businesses have to be physically located in Atlanta.

As with NCR almost all of their business is done electronically. Being in PTC is a benefit to their employees morale and quality of life, not customers. Their students have a much more peasant atmosphere and ease of movement here.

Even the employees who do not live here still spend money here.

Same applies to IT, colleges, medical, R&D and a whole spectrum of other professionals and industry.

Of course Atlanta wants the physical locations there. That generates the revenues from eating, emergency purchases of office supplies, hotel stays and a lot more from people who do not live there. I would be much happier seeing that occur here.

There is only so much money out there. Where do we spend it and how? Up in Atlanta to generate tax dollars there or here?

Spyglass
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You still won't address improvements needed at the intersectiion

I don't get it.

roundabout
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SPY: jobs

All Peachtree City wants are high-paying jobs. We turned down one factory with Jonesboro workers fearing they would drive to PTC to work!

Mike King
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Mayor

"As I said before and will repeat, the answer is getting jobs here. Fayette is pretty flat in residential growth and home sales because people just do not want to commute anymore. It began when the economy was still doing fairly well."

Mayor can you document that those working in Peachtree City actually live within the city limits? Perhaps if you would check the tags at NCR, Cooper Lighting, Gerisheimer, and others you might consider retracting that statement. The preponderance of those living and still employed Peachtree City residents still commute.

Residential growth and home sales are down due to a combination of the economy and build out within the city limits. Your reasoning of sales/growth being flat due to people not wanting to commute is pure bovine excrement.

Don Haddix
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Haddix: Commuting

Commuting out of PTC takes Sales Tax dollars out of PTC daily. Commuting in brings them in. The less one has to commute the less roads are needed.

The less people commute out the more they spend here and have to spend here, not elsewhere.

Per data on the Internet anyone can find our "tax friendly" rating on a scale of 1 to 10 is one, bottom of the barrel.

The more tax friend we can get the more people will stop moving out of PTC or not locating here due to our high cost of living.

The 1.25 mill went in and the next day a Realtor friend had five people come in and say enough is enough and put their home on the market.

The math is simple, the more one lives, works and spends money in a local the more income a city and county has. The more one leaves a community or will not live there the less money the city and county has.

As well if you did research versus assumption you would know people increasingly, nationwide, do not want to commute.

The math and logic are simple, or should be, to grasp.

Robert W. Morgan
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Bogus claim from our mayor

who stated "The day after the 1.25 went in a Realtor friend told me that 5 people put their homes on the market. They had enough."

Actual fact, according to MLS data (provided by my real estate agent) - The day after that meeting no homes in Peachtree City showed up as new listings. That was on a Friday. Then Saturday thru Tuesday showed 2 new listings in PTC, 1 in Smoke Rise and 1 which happens to be my rental house (I'm not moving). Then 2 more new listings in the next 5 days, 1 a foreclosure, 1 not, All of these were with differebt agents and companies. No single Realtor has listed 5 houses in 1 day for the past two years unless they represented a builder.

We need a Truth O Meter on here.

Spyglass
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I called him on that below..

That's the most BS statement I've seen on here in a while, and we all knew it. It's fairly obvious his ego gets the best of him on here at times. He thinks we're his myrmidons.

Robert W. Morgan
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You did call him out, spy- and earlier than I

I did not intend to step on your BS alert. There will be many more opportunities, I think.
These things are easy to check out and disprove. Lot's of politicians are finding that out the hard way.

Spyglass
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I'm glad more than one of us noticed it..

He needs to stop posting before he thinks.

I'm still waiting on his link to the comment he made about our Tax Situation being 1 out of 10, with 1 being the worst.

Don Haddix
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Haddix: 1 out of 10

Actually from posting links to answer others it seems the spam filter blocked my main computer. So I am winging it getting some info on now.

With that said here is the link for 1 out of 10 in Georgia. Delete the spaces for the URL. I don't want to trigger the spam filter here as well.

http ://www. citytowninfo .com/places/georgia/peachtree-city

Don Haddix
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Haddix: Link

I have not answered because I seem to have triggered the spam filter and am blocked.

Here is the link:

http://www.citytowninfo.com/places/georgia/peachtree-city

Spyglass
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That seems to show PTC in VERY good light

Which is expected.

Fact is, we were talking about needed changes at the Intersection of I-85 and State Route 74. You know, you go north on State 74 out of PTC to reach this area. No your golf cart won't reach it, I know mine won't.

Let's try and stay on point here.

Don Haddix
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Haddix: I did, You Didn't

Your trying to evade the issue now that you have been proven wrong.

Taxes is a big reason people do not live in PTC, but the county or Coweta. Commuting is something not wanted anymore. Younger families are choosing to live closer to work.

All issues are dealt with by having the jobs here.

You think we need to remain a commuter community, I don't. We disagree and the facts are on my side.

I already addressed 74/85, including even the intersection could be effectively improved most people still would not want to commute. As the older residents who commute retire they are not being replaced by younger commuters.

You do not like the answers. So what else is there to say but we disagree? So unless you have a better answer than what is proposed is better than nothing, later.

NUK_1
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Evading what, Don?

Proven wrong about what? He asked for a link that you referenced and that was it. Then he asked about improvements to 74/I-85 since the fact is that it's important to a lot of people who actually do commute DUE TO THE LACK OF HIGH PAYING JOBS in both FC and PTC. Until that drastically changes, there are going to be a lot of people commuting out of FC and people who DO care improvements that will help their commute.

Until all these phantom jobs arrive in PTC and FC that don't exist now and seemingly are not going to exist for a few years, there will be commuters here. An argument can also be made that improvements to 74/I-85 will attract companies to locate in FC and PTC due to interstate access that may locate elsewhere without improvements or because of the very unproven idea that great jobs are heading our way in the near-future.

What Spyglass said was "BS" was your claim that 5 families put there homes up for sale right after Council passed the millage rate increase. I believe that statement was shown to be completely false by Morgan. I think those 5 families either told you some real lies or it was all made up to begin with.

Robert W. Morgan
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Actually Don, the spam filter has been upgraded

As of Friday it is now the Spam and Useless and Unwanted Info Filter (SUUIF). It scans everything that is typed and then rates it according to relevancy and whether or not anyone could possibly benefit by reading it. If it gives you a low score, you are not published.
I'm sure Cal would apologize for any inconvenience or distress this has caused.

Mike King
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Mayor

Another issue beyond your feeble grasp. The majority of working citizens of our town currently commute, you can not change that. The majority of employees working in Peachtree City live outside the city limits. This is reality.

Working Americans try to live as close to their work as they can, given the various costs and their priorities. We are free to choose, in case you've forgotten.

Now if your math is so simple, please explain Fischers Crossing, or perhaps the vacant storefronts and empty industrial space. "The less people commute out the more they spend here and have to spend here, not elsewhere." Obviously your words, and certainly not those of a competent economist.

If you would get your head out of your fourth point of contact you'd know that commuting has been a way of life in metro Atlanta for quite awhile and despite what you say, it's not about to change any time soon. To end commuting would basically make our town a retirement village, is that your goal?

NUK_1
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All very true, Don

People prefer not to commute long distances to work and they also don't want to commute to shop either, so that means that there are going to often times be "big boxes" where people live or close by. It also means that people will gladly flock to the new movie theater next to Sam's instead of driving from PTC all the way to the Pavillion/Tinseltown. The tax dollars will go elsewhere if "elsewhere" has what people are looking for in terms of jobs and shopping.

What I want to know is exactly how PTC is supposed to attract so many high-paying jobs so people don't need to drive to the airport and well beyond to find employment that pays well. I don't know if you had the best minds on the planet on the Dev Authority and a whole team of economic development gurus if it would be enough. Some of the factors that make PTC a desired place to live are some of the same factors that make it not a good choice for a company to locate here. Land is NOT cheap. Access to the interstate is not good and getting worse. There is a perception that FC and especially PTC aren't the most business-friendly either.

ptownboy77
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agree

where are most big paying business at high rises (ie Atlanta Skyline). You can get mutiple business' in those buildings, they dont want to be in strip malls or village centers beside Kmart.

Spyglass
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I flat out don't believe 1.25 increase

Caused 5 folks to put their homes on the market with one agent. I'm in the business (if you can call it that right now), and let me tell you something, folks that don't have to move aren't, for the most part. There are always exceptions. Stagnant housing values have kept it to a minimum.

C'mon Don, what do you take us for?

Oh yeah, hit me with a link to this so called site that has us at the bottom of the barrel. Have you traveled anywhere around this fair Country?

Don Haddix
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Haddix: Link

Bottom of the Barrel in Georgia

Nationally 3 out of 10 and in Georgia 1 out of 10. Considering how many areas of the country have incredible taxes, that is not good.

We cannot keep on the path that keeps making our local cost of living so high. Increasing our property value but having lower Property Tax rates is a must.

I have lived in several areas of the country, including two incredibly expensive suburbs of Washington, DC, and overseas. As well traveled.

Yes, putting a home on the market does not mean you are going to sell your home.

In fact another Realtor friend had two listed.

Just because you have not does not mean it isn't happening.

Busy Bee
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Don's solution:

Quit commuting

borntorun
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Good Point Mike

As usual, Donnie Darko shows he doesn't have a clue. Your reasons for home sales and residential growth being down are far more accurate than his.

I'm sure there is some govt agency out there that could answer my question but it would be interesting to see what the majority of jobs are that our fellow PTC citizens commute to outside of the city and county. Used to be the majority of our citizens worked for the airlines but I'm not sure that is the case anymore.

I suspect given PTC's socio-economic demographics, most of them are high paying white collar jobs and I seriously doubt that PTC could ever recruit enough of the kinds of businesses and employers that these folks commute to that would make a difference in our commuting patterns. Will be interesting to see what our new Economic Development guru is able to accomplish with new jobs. Given that he is on a one year contract my guess is probably not much at all in this economy.

Busy Bee
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Seems like both of these changes would help

Allowing traffic to flow off I-85 South onto 74 South without stopping would be a huge help to commuters returning home to Fayette County. And allowing the southbound 74 traffic (coming from Fairburn) to flow onto 85 North without a left turn at the light will reduce some of the congestion for those who are getting onto 85 North coming from PTC and Tyrone. It won't solve the entire problem, but it's a step in the right direction.

I think Steve's big objection is that he did not come up with the idea. We won't see any alternative proposal from either him or Haddix, just criticism. Isn't it great to have such wonderful leadership?

mudcat
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Helps AM traffic from PTC as well

Seems to me if the southbound 74 don't need a left turn, then you may not need a light at all to stop the northbound commuters. At the very least you could have a contstant green light for 1 or 2 lanes onto 85.

roundabout
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Mud, King, Observer, kaffee: Censored

Well, I'm being cued again for censoring before printing.

Maybe it is just as well.
Too many attitudes and philosophies here that I can't ignore anyway.
Some of the little USA hollows and necks of the woods are filled with 20th century heritage, and simply don't want to hear anything different.

Mike King
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mudcat

This is indeed a start and it will make things better. I would go a bit further and ask that the DOT upgrade the intersection to the north and south with improved access so as to take some pressure off 74/I-85.